From nothing, anything comes.
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31-12-2013, 08:32 PM
From nothing, anything comes.
In this post, I intend on opposing the common held belief that something cannot come from nothing. The literal, philosophical definition of nothing, meaning the absence of anything at all. I actually don't have much to say on it, just a simple point really that seems to change the game, at least for me.

Absent any laws of physics, not just the ones we discover, but any that might exist objectively, there is nothing to restrict the behavior of nothing (if that makes any sense at all). This is the key point here. So, when someone says "something can't come from nothing!", I think to myself "Why would you say that? What laws govern how nothing behaves?" It seems to me that nothing can do whatever it wants.

Finally, I'm not saying that there ever "was" nothing, or rather I should say that I'm not saying that there wasn't a "time" when there wasn't anything, but if there was, I don't see anything that supports the idea that it couldn't have produced existence itself. Although I'm leaning toward the idea that existence is necessary and nonexistence of anything at all is just impossible, so this is really just a response I will keep handy to the argument "something can't come from nothing".

I guess that's it. Also, Happy New Year! Big Grin

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING
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31-12-2013, 08:56 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." - the Prophet of The Abyss

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Thumbsup

I think it's all just the abyss belching and farting. Some stenches go away quick and the rotten ones linger longer. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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31-12-2013, 09:11 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
I am perfectly okay with nothing. You can't have something without nothing. A zen master would understand this much. Smile It doesn't boggle my mind to contemplate there being a nothing, but I think it probably scares some people. Before *I* was here, I remember nothing and I am okay with that. I'm happy now and when I'm nothing again... well- nothing. Oh well. No feelings there, no anything.

Like girly, I'll just gaze back for now (and like it!). Meh.
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31-12-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
I see the whole "something from nothing" "controversy" as an irrelevant red herring.

On the theist side, there is ALWAYS the Special Pleading Fallacy that the "creator"-figure "didn't come from nothing" (the question of "where did it come from?" is off limits for them), and from the atheist side, it's irrelevant. We don't have to make a claim either way, or even have an opinion or even a guess on it, in order to see that Their Emperor Has No Clothes.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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31-12-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
We're all made up of 99% "nothing" anyway. And look at all the stuff we can do!
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31-12-2013, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2013 09:29 PM by Heathen.)
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
You pose a very good question. It is unrealistic to expect an easy answer to perhaps the most profound and difficult question there is. It is something that I've struggled with for many years.

As it happens, this week I finished reading A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing by Lawrence M. Krauss.

I'm not going to even attempt to give you a synopsis, in fact I plan on rereading the book again in the coming weeks. There's some pretty difficult concepts. It's theoretical physics and cosmology after all, but Krauss is one of the better communicators of this branch of science, at least he is for me. But if you are truly interested in an answer you might want to give it a read. I'm not sure it gives me the answer, but it does for the first time hint that there may indeed be one.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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31-12-2013, 10:05 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
I'm currently going through the book now actually, which might have inspired the post, but not finished yet. Although quite a bit of it is beyond my comprehension as I'm no physicist, but it is a very interesting read (technically listen, I got it from audible).

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING
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31-12-2013, 10:15 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
Yup, I found it pretty difficult to wrap my head around a lot of it. But as I said, I didn't expect an easy answer to this one. I'm sure you didn't either. The book might be worthy of further discussion here but quite frankly, I'll admit that I wouldn't even know where to start. Perhaps after the second read. Huh

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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31-12-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
From a writer's perspective from nothing, anything comes makes perfect sense. After all, a great many fictional ideas came from absolutely nothing. Those ideas were created by the writer(s), and it is somewhat amazing considering that the fictional things created simply do not exist in reality.

I am unsure if the same concept can be applied to the universe, but I am certain someone more scientifically minded than me could make a valid argument for it.
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01-01-2014, 01:48 AM
RE: From nothing, anything comes.
I find the discussion about "nothing" troubling. It all depends on what definition of nothing you wish to think about. I believe that the classical, definitional concept of nothing cannot produce anything, because it doesn't exist.

You have to understand that "nothing" does not exist. It is a concept. It's a concept that is just as hard to wrap your head around as the concept of infinity.

What lies beyond our universe? Is it nothing? If it's a nothing that can produce something then it isn't really "nothing" now is it?

What lies beyond our universe?

Is our universe infinite? If it is then we have no use for the concept of nothing. Again, "nothing" wouldn't exist if the universe is infinite. The problem lies in the fact that our brains, being what they are, are as of yet incapable of defining or understanding these terms. We know that these terms have conceptual meaning, but we have yet to be able to aptly apply them to our known reality.

So in other words, fuck if I know man, but let me know what you come up with. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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