Fulfilled Prophecies
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05-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Fulfilled Prophecies
I'm trying to use reason to explain away (or prove the reliability of) fulfilled prophecy in the Bible.

There are those who say Israel's re-forming in the 40's is proof of God.

There are also those who say Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the messiah.

What say you on this subject?
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05-11-2012, 05:36 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
Quote:
There are also those who say Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the messiah.
This is one of the easier flaws of the bible to point out.

We can reasonably assume that the OT (Old Testament) came way before Jesus, and that the Gospel Writers were aware of it any the supposed "Prophecies" of the Messiah( though they did fudge up on some of the specific ones and messed up certain words which reveals that they clearly didn't know THAT much of the Hebrew religion). It could simply be that they wrote that Jesus fulfilled them because they knew what they were and could have written it in the Gospels as a "Testimony" of Jesus.

The Gospels weren't written around the time of Jesus so they easily could have put certain details into the account to make it seem like he was the real deal. We also can reasonably assume that the Writers themselves were not "Eyewitnesses" to Jesus themselves due to the fact that the Gospels were written DECADES after the supposed events took place.

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05-11-2012, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2012 05:59 PM by Vipa.)
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
(05-11-2012 05:28 PM)onedream Wrote:  I'm trying to use reason to explain away (or prove the reliability of) fulfilled prophecy in the Bible.

There are those who say Israel's re-forming in the 40's is proof of God.

There are also those who say Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the messiah.

What say you on this subject?
1. You can work towards their fulfilment if the prophecies are known
The idea of reforming Israel (not that it ever existed the way they say (there are some pretty neat 4000page strong books with historical background on this)) wasn't exactly written in an unknown book buried in a library, on the contrary it's right in one of the best known ones since thousands of years

2. There is mostly no set timeframe on the prophecies, some idiot could come up with possibilities to fulfill them thousands of years later

3. Prophecies usually are vague so many things can fall under them - or not

4. It's easy to fulfill prophecies in a fairytale, I could write a book about Harry Potter fulfilling the ones from the old testament (well actually I probably couldn't for copyright reasons, but you get the point). So saying some dude in the same book as the prophecies fulfilled them isn't worth mentioning until you prove his existence and his life - and as A2 said, there are hundreds of years between the old and the new testament
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05-11-2012, 06:17 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
The entire enterprise is misguided, and a misunderstanding of the nature of "prophesy".
A "prophet" by definition' is a "mouthpiece", sent from the god to speak truth to power of THAT day.
The notion that they were "fortune-tellers" is not an real part of Hebrew culture. In fact "soothsaying" was specifically forbidden.
http://www.lakehamiltonbiblecamp.com/man/occult2.htm
The "fortune-teller" is a modern myth.
The whole business is ignorance of what those texts are all about. The "prophet as knower of the future" was cooked up by the Christians to legitimize their Jeebus. It's an inauthentic Hebrew idea.
http://www.agts.edu/faculty/faculty_publ...rophet.pdf
http://www.heraldmag.org/literature/quest_9.htm
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Proph1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_office

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05-11-2012, 06:27 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
future happens in the future. Dodgy

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05-11-2012, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2012 06:57 PM by PoolBoyG.)
Lightbulb RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
1. Prophecies are magic. Magic does not exist. No evidence that magic has, currently is, or will exist.
2. Vague generalizations are not prophecies, and are worthless. They can be applied to multiple scenarios.
3. There is such a thing as self fulfilled prophecies. Self fulfilled prophecies are missions statements, not prophecy.
4. There is such a thing as selection bias. You choose the prophecy that best match your situation, and gloss over the other prophecies that failed utterly. Example. Second coming of Jesus during the lifetime of the apostles.

I can't stress this enough - MAGIC DOES NOT EXIST.
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05-11-2012, 07:18 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
(05-11-2012 06:49 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  1. Prophecies are magic. Magic does not exist. No evidence that magic has, currently is, or will exist.
2. Vague generalizations are not prophecies, and are worthless. They can be applied to multiple scenarios.
3. There is such a thing as self fulfilled prophecies. Self fulfilled prophecies are missions statements, not prophecy.
4. There is such a thing as selection bias. You choose the prophecy that best match your situation, and gloss over the other prophecies that failed utterly. Example. Second coming of Jesus during the lifetime of the apostles.

I can't stress this enough - MAGIC DOES NOT EXIST.

Re #2...exactly. Thumbsup
It did NOT specifically reference Jeebus.
ANY messiah would have fit the bill. It's a later view, confirmed by bias.

It's essentially circular :

1. The prophesy is fulfilled by Jesus.
Why ?
2. The writers of the gospels say Jesus fulfilled the prophesy.
Why ?
3. The prophesy is fulfilled by Jesus.
Why ?
4. The writers of the gospels say Jesus fulfilled the prophesy.
Why ?
see #1, and repeat, ad infinitum.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-11-2012, 09:43 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
The failure of prophecies of the Bible are important to note. I don't have the awesome link now, but I remember there being quite a few.

For example, from RationalWiki;

"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will put an end to the
hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and
his army—the most ruthless of nations— will be brought in to destroy the
land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with
the slain."


The invasion failed.

"Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be
moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of
it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they
shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his
neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.3 And the
spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the
counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers,
and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.4 And the
Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce
king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.5 And the
waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried
up.6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence
shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.Isaiah
19:7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and
every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no
more. 8 The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the
Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away."


Egypt is no longer a pagan state of 'idolaters' and 'wizards', there are no longer kingdoms in Egypt, and the Nile certainly hasn't dried up.

The point is, a couple prophecies coming true (depending on interpretation) don't serve as evidence when many have failed (regardless of interpretation, ie. Nebuchadnezzar is dead. He specifically was supposed to destroy Egypt) - including prophecies directly from the Lord Himself.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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05-11-2012, 10:06 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
The following encapsulates most of the issues of biblical prophesy.



I said to my friend last week, "Man, I sure would like a pepperoni pizza."

My friend posts on facebook one week later, "Mike had a bacon pizza today."




The problems are:
1. Self-fulfilling; I wanted a pizza, so I (allegedly) got one
2. Not specifically a future claim; like many biblical "prophesies" it was not phrased as a prediction
3. The outcome did not precisely fit the "prophesy"; bacon =/= pepperoni
4. You have to take my friend's word for it that the "prophesy" was fulfilled. He could be lying to make me sound like a fatass

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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05-11-2012, 11:06 PM
RE: Fulfilled Prophecies
(05-11-2012 10:06 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The following encapsulates most of the issues of biblical prophesy.



I said to my friend last week, "Man, I sure would like a pepperoni pizza."

My friend posts on facebook one week later, "Mike had a bacon pizza today."




The problems are:
1. Self-fulfilling; I wanted a pizza, so I (allegedly) got one
2. Not specifically a future claim; like many biblical "prophesies" it was not phrased as a prediction
3. The outcome did not precisely fit the "prophesy"; bacon =/= pepperoni
4. You have to take my friend's word for it that the "prophesy" was fulfilled. He could be lying to make me sound like a fatass
Wait.... So you aren't a fatass?

Damn, now I gotta revise my image of you! Tongue Bowing Tongue

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