Fulfilled prophecy
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-01-2011, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2011 02:05 PM by TheSixthGlass.)
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(12-01-2011 11:42 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible doesn't tell when or how quickly the prophecies will be fulfilled so there is no way to tell what will happen in a specific year.
Then they are not very compelling "prophecies."

(12-01-2011 11:42 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Israel became a nation in 1948. There can't be any doubt that the prophecies about it were written before then.
I was speaking of Biblical prophecies in general, but I'll agree that the Bible was written before the nation of Israel was established. But you've failed to demonstrate where the Bible makes the prediction that the nation of Israel will be established in the year 1948.

Furthermore, let's say the Bible did make that unambiguous prediction. Isn't it highly likely that people who believed in the Bible might do things to help the "prophecy" be fulfilled? I'm sure you've heard of self-fulfilling prophecy.

(12-01-2011 11:42 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Most of the people who have responded have indicated that they simply don't believe what I am saying. There isn't much that I can say about that.
Except maybe make an attempt to demonstrate through facts and evidence that what you're saying is true, which you have not done. All you have are assertions with nothing to back them up. There's a reason we don't believe you - your prophecies are not compelling. There should likewise be a reason that you believe they are and think others should as well.

Otherwise, again, why are you here?

Also, here's an interesting link I found regarding being skeptical of prophecies. It even goes over the nation of Israel prophecy. http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/04/26/prob...and-koran/

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-01-2011, 02:27 PM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
The Book of Buddy Christ predicts:

-A great nation will fall and a ruler shall be slain
-The seas will become chaotic
-Countries who were once allies will war with each other

See. These are called vague generalities. Written in the same "open for interpretation" manner as the Bible. They seem specific. But had I written this 10 years ago, I could say that:

-A great nation will fall and a ruler shall be slain-
Read one history book and we can see that governments collapse through revolution, uprising, or restructure pretty regularly. And rulers are slain in the process. My great prophecy here was fulfilled when Iraq fell and Saddam was executed.

-The seas will become chaotic-
Oceans are rarely known for being calm. Once again, it looks like I'm referencing a specific occurrence in the future, but it could easily be argued that I was referring to either hurricane Katrina or BP's oil spill.

-Countries who were once allies will war with each other-
Most countries were at one time allied with a country they now despise. "Allies" is quite a loose term. Would it be so hard to imagine the US going to war with South Korea or our NATO ally Germany if either country suddenly decided to take back our military bases and started a uranium trade agreement with the middle east?


You see, this whole prophecy thing is very Crossing Over with John Edwards. You shout out enough general ideas and someone will pick up on it and fill in the specifics themselves, when really all you did was say "I'm sensing a country with the letter B... it's a Mmm... a Keh... a Taa.. a Chhh..."

"Oooh China? China had a nuclear revolutionary war! I can't believe he knew that!"

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-01-2011, 04:30 PM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(11-01-2011 10:53 AM)theophilus Wrote:  There are prophecies in the Bible that are in the process of being fulfilled right now.

No, there aren't.

Quote:God told the Israelites that if they persisted in sinning they would be driven from their land and scattered among the other nations but that they would be regathered in their own land for a final judgment.

It's a good thing that it didn't give a date for it, then, isn't it? Since there's no given date when the prophecy is supposed to occur, the prophecy is non-falsifiable, since you can always say it hasn't happened yet.

Quote:The final regathering started in 1948 when the state of Israel was established.

But the Bible never gave a date for the fulfilling of its prophecy. Thus the only way for the prophecy to ever be proven false was the complete and total destruction of the Jewish culture. Non-falsifiable prophecies aren't exactly impressive.

Quote:Two more prophecies being fulfilled now are found in Daniel 12:4,
Quote:But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.

This can literally apply to any point in human history.

Quote:Here is an article that gives a more detailed explanation of Daniel's prophecies:

http://www.raptureready.com/soap/wood5.html

Oh, good god, did you seriously just link to RaptureReady?

Seriously?

And you think this will convince someone? That place is a nuthouse. A loony bin. It's Arkham Asylum minus the Joker plus about six hundred religious fanatics. It's one of the world's biggest bullshit repositories. And you think this is a reliable source?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-01-2011, 04:32 PM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(12-01-2011 11:42 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible doesn't tell when or how quickly the prophecies will be fulfilled so there is no way to tell what will happen in a specific year.

So the prophecies are actually useless as measures of Biblical accuracy. Without a time frame for fulfillment, they are unfalsifiable, and thus invalid as evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 12:19 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(12-01-2011 04:30 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And you think this will convince someone? That place is a nuthouse. A loony bin. It's Arkham Asylum minus the Joker plus about six hundred religious fanatics. It's one of the world's biggest bullshit repositories. And you think this is a reliable source?

Yes, theophilus really does seem to believe that. Sad, isn't it?

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 06:44 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
I think the peer-reviewed process escapes many Christians , sadly.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 09:49 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(12-01-2011 01:44 PM)TheSixthGlass Wrote:  I was speaking of Biblical prophecies in general, but I'll agree that the Bible was written before the nation of Israel was established. But you've failed to demonstrate where the Bible makes the prediction that the nation of Israel will be established in the year 1948.
The Bible clearly foretold that the Jews would be scattered and later regathered. Jesus predicted it in Luke 21:24,
Quote:They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
You can find out more in this article:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice...phecy.html

Here is just one paragraph from it.
Quote:In 1948 when the modern state of Israel was born, it not only became an important stage setting development but began an actual fulfillment of specific Bible prophecies about an international regathering of the Jews in unbelief before the judgment of the tribulation. Such a prediction is found in the following Old Testament passages: Ezek. 20:33-38; 22:17-22; 36:22-24; 37:1- 14; Isa. 11:11-12; Zeph. 2:1-2 and Ezek. 38- 39 presupposes such a setting.

Quote:Furthermore, let's say the Bible did make that unambiguous prediction. Isn't it highly likely that people who believed in the Bible might do things to help the "prophecy" be fulfilled? I'm sure you've heard of self-fulfilling prophecy.
In this case the prophecy was fulfilled by people who didn't believe it. Most Jews are secular and don't believe in the God of the Bible. Israel was established by Jews who had witnessed the holocaust and wanted a nation of their own to make sure nothing like that ever happened again.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 10:20 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
Theo, we've been over this already. The Bible doesn't give a date for the prophecy, thus it is unfalsifiable, and thus it cannot be used as evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
Quote:They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Gentiles still out-number jews worldwide at about 1000:1 , is our time done ?

Quote:http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice...phecy.html
The website is pathetic - it stretches the passages to no end to fit actual events.
Apologetics don't count.Either the Bible says clearly when , what and who - or it doesn't.
Quote:
Quote:Furthermore, let's say the Bible did make that unambiguous prediction. Isn't it highly likely that people who believed in the Bible might do things to help the "prophecy" be fulfilled? I'm sure you've heard of self-fulfilling prophecy.
In this case the prophecy was fulfilled by people who didn't believe it. Most Jews are secular and don't believe in the God of the Bible. Israel was established by Jews who had witnessed the holocaust and wanted a nation of their own to make sure nothing like that ever happened again.
Ever hear of Zionism ? The return to Israel is a theme heard often in prayer - there's a secular activity for you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-01-2011, 10:45 AM
RE: Fulfilled prophecy
(13-01-2011 10:20 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Theo, we've been over this already. The Bible doesn't give a date for the prophecy, thus it is unfalsifiable, and thus it cannot be used as evidence.

*sigh* Exactly.

Theophilus, do you have an answer to Unbeliever? Because he has stated my objection much more concisely than I was trying to (as usual). How can you claim this as evidence when there are no specifics given?

By your method, we can use any book of antiquity (or any book at all, really) to make prophecies and predictions. We can probably make any book "divine."

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: