Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
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14-02-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(13-02-2015 05:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 04:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think it was invented full blown; more like a simple story accreted details, imaginings, and borrowings.

We already know that Christianity has added many, many things as it spread to other cultures.

Yeah, ok.

But who started the ball rolling, and why? I don't think we know.

In my opinion, the most likely candidate is the government.

And except for the supernatural, I find that the least likely.

There is no actual evidence, just speculation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-02-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Mark,

Does Atwill address the mental gymnastics the gospel writer(s) unnecessarily performed to get Jesus born in Bethlehem? The prophesy is the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, yet the story clearly says he was born in Nazareth and then they have to make up this bullshit census story to fulfill the prophesy. If the Flavians had the gospels written, why not have him just be born in Bethlehem? And why have these gospels be contradictory?

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14-02-2015, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 06:39 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 11:08 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  Mark,

Does Atwill address the mental gymnastics the gospel writer(s) unnecessarily performed to get Jesus born in Bethlehem? The prophesy is the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, yet the story clearly says he was born in Nazareth and then they have to make up this bullshit census story to fulfill the prophesy. If the Flavians had the gospels written, why not have him just be born in Bethlehem? And why have these gospels be contradictory?

Atwill doesn't specifically address that point about the birth. I think he does accept that the Jesus story was in part invented to seem to fulfil predictions from scripture. Atwill begins his analogy between Titus and Jesus with Titus' first action as leader (after his father, Vespasian left for Rome, leaving him in charge) being a war on the sea of Galilea after which dead Jewish bodies were fished out of the water. He says Jesus began his preaching campaign on the shores of the same sea of Galilee when he Jesus said to Peter and Andrew "come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

So Atwill leaves the birth part of the gospel stories out of his theory.

Don't forget Mark's Gospel has no birth story and it was the first to be written.

One of the minor weaknesses in Atwill's theory is that he doesn't address why the gospels are so different. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that multiple different authors added to and subtracted from the gospels as the years went by, which is one of the reasons I think the gospels became so different.
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14-02-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
One of the points that AtWill makes a big deal of is that all his analogies between Titus and Jesus, and there are about 40 of them, occur in the same chronological order in the gospels as they do in Josephus' "Wars of the Jews."

I have not had the time or the energy to check out this claim, but I suspect that what he says is true otherwise he wouldn't say it.

Even though some of these analogies are a little weak and dubious, if you think about it, it really is quite remarkable that they do occur in the same order.
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14-02-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Vespasian’s reign (69 – 79 CE) was notable for the fact that he, with his son Titus by his side, is well known to have been a great propagandist. The Flavians were particularly good at promoting the public’s respect for imperial authority. Vespasian was said to have restored a blind man’s site using spittle and to have healed a cripple (do these sound familiar?) Vespasian promoted the idea that he had bought peace to the empire. Vespasian was a strong patron of the arts and letters, and commissioned many authors to write “Flavian versions” of history. He was a wily old bird. It is entirely plausible that the Gospels were one such Flavian version of history.

There is a nice short podcast here
http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...roved.html

from Mike Duncan about Vespasian, which neatly describes what a great propagandist Vespasian was. Duncan knows nothing about Atwill's theory, yet the podcast indirectly backs up what Atwlll says.
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14-02-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 06:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2015 05:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yeah, ok.

But who started the ball rolling, and why? I don't think we know.

In my opinion, the most likely candidate is the government.

And except for the supernatural, I find that the least likely.

There is no actual evidence, just speculation.

You don't find the similarities between Titus and Jesus convincing?
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14-02-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 06:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  And except for the supernatural, I find that the least likely.

There is no actual evidence, just speculation.

You don't find the similarities between Titus and Jesus convincing?

Nope. I think it a bit forced.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-02-2015, 06:56 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You don't find the similarities between Titus and Jesus convincing?

Nope. I think it a bit forced.

So you think the similarities are just pure coincidence?
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14-02-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 06:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. I think it a bit forced.

So you think the similarities are just pure coincidence?

No, I didn't say that. Why would you think that was what I meant?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-02-2015, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 07:28 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  So you think the similarities are just pure coincidence?

No, I didn't say that. Why would you think that was what I meant?

Well, I don't know how you think the similarities might have happened. I'd be interested to know.

PS I'm genuinely interested....I'm not trying to prove you wrongShy
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