Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
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14-02-2015, 07:58 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 06:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  One of the points that AtWill makes a big deal of is that all his analogies between Titus and Jesus, and there are about 40 of them, occur in the same chronological order in the gospels as they do in Josephus' "Wars of the Jews."

I have not had the time or the energy to check out this claim, but I suspect that what he says is true otherwise he wouldn't say it.

Even though some of these analogies are a little weak and dubious, if you think about it, it really is quite remarkable that they do occur in the same order.

I'd say there is some fact-fitting and invention going on.

And, of course, there are all the actually important facts of Titus's life that aren't even remotely parallel.

Lincoln-Kennedy parallels:
  • Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.
  • Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60.
  • Lincoln defeated incumbent Vice President John C. Breckenridge for the presidency in 1860; Kennedy defeated incumbent Vice President Richard M. Nixon for the presidency in 1960.
  • Both their predecessors left office in their seventies and retired to Pennsylvania. James Buchanan, whom Lincoln succeeded, retired to Lancaster Township; Dwight D. Eisenhower, whom Kennedy succeeded, retired to Gettysburg.
  • Both their Vice Presidents and successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson (Andrew Johnson and Lyndon B. Johnson) who were born in '08.
  • Both presidents were concerned with the problems of black Americans and made their views strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which took effect in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on Civil Rights, and the same year was the famous March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.
  • Both presidents were shot on a Friday in the presence of their wives. Both Fridays preceded a major holiday observed within the week.
  • Both presidents were accompanied by another couple.
  • The male companion of the other couple was wounded by the assassin.
  • Both presidents had a son die during their presidency.
  • Lincoln was shot by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theatre; Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in a Lincoln automobile, made by Ford.
  • Both presidents' last names have 7 letters.
  • There are 6 letters in each Johnson's first name.
  • After shooting Lincoln, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Kennedy, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.
  • Both Johnsons were succeeded as President in '69 by Republicans whose mothers were named Hannah.
  • Both assassins died in the same month as their victim in a state adjacent to the state of their birth.
  • Both assassins were Southern white males born in the late '30s, who were in their mid-20s.
  • Both assassins were killed before being tried, by men who were reared in the North, changed their name as adults, and were bachelors.
  • Both assassins had 15 letters in their name

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-02-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Wasn't there something about their secretaries too, Chas?

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14-02-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 08:03 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Wasn't there something about their secretaries too, Chas?

I think something like Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln and Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. Consider

The point, of course, that one can find 'correlations' wherever.

Conspiracy theorists and other wackos do it all the time, convincing themselves that there is meaning where there is only trivial coincidence. We get them here rather too often.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-02-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 08:03 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Wasn't there something about their secretaries too, Chas?

I think something like Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln and Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. Consider

The point, of course, that one can find 'correlations' wherever.

Conspiracy theorists and other wackos do it all the time, convincing themselves that there is meaning where there is only trivial coincidence. We get them here rather too often.

Yep, that was it. Thanks bud.

I have to admit I would like nothing more than Atwill to be right. It's intriguing and fun, but just doesn't hold enough water for me. Just a bit too far-fetched, and considering the topic, that's hard to do.

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14-02-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  One of the points that AtWill makes a big deal of is that all his analogies between Titus and Jesus, and there are about 40 of them, occur in the same chronological order in the gospels as they do in Josephus' "Wars of the Jews."

I have not had the time or the energy to check out this claim, but I suspect that what he says is true otherwise he wouldn't say it.

Even though some of these analogies are a little weak and dubious, if you think about it, it really is quite remarkable that they do occur in the same order.

I'd say there is some fact-fitting and invention going on.

And, of course, there are all the actually important facts of Titus's life that aren't even remotely parallel.

Lincoln-Kennedy parallels:
  • Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.
  • Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60.
  • Lincoln defeated incumbent Vice President John C. Breckenridge for the presidency in 1860; Kennedy defeated incumbent Vice President Richard M. Nixon for the presidency in 1960.
  • Both their predecessors left office in their seventies and retired to Pennsylvania. James Buchanan, whom Lincoln succeeded, retired to Lancaster Township; Dwight D. Eisenhower, whom Kennedy succeeded, retired to Gettysburg.
  • Both their Vice Presidents and successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson (Andrew Johnson and Lyndon B. Johnson) who were born in '08.
  • Both presidents were concerned with the problems of black Americans and made their views strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which took effect in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on Civil Rights, and the same year was the famous March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.
  • Both presidents were shot on a Friday in the presence of their wives. Both Fridays preceded a major holiday observed within the week.
  • Both presidents were accompanied by another couple.
  • The male companion of the other couple was wounded by the assassin.
  • Both presidents had a son die during their presidency.
  • Lincoln was shot by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theatre; Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in a Lincoln automobile, made by Ford.
  • Both presidents' last names have 7 letters.
  • There are 6 letters in each Johnson's first name.
  • After shooting Lincoln, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Kennedy, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.
  • Both Johnsons were succeeded as President in '69 by Republicans whose mothers were named Hannah.
  • Both assassins died in the same month as their victim in a state adjacent to the state of their birth.
  • Both assassins were Southern white males born in the late '30s, who were in their mid-20s.
  • Both assassins were killed before being tried, by men who were reared in the North, changed their name as adults, and were bachelors.
  • Both assassins had 15 letters in their name

These similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy are pure coincidence. Kennedy was not a literary invention, he was a real man. Jesus is a literary invention. The only evidence of his existence are the stories in the gospels and some circumstantial evidence from other writers.

Your analogy does point out that it is easy to find similarities between historical characters.

I think you have implied that you do recognise there are similarities between Titus and Jesus, yet it seems that you are suggesting they are coincidental, just as you implied that the similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy are coincidental.

I'm genuinely interested in finding out whether you think the similarities between Jesus and Titus are just coincidental? If they're not coincidental, then how did they appear?

By the way, even the naive (or dishonest) Eusebius (the fourth century Christian historian) could not ignore the similarities:
“If anyone compares the words of our savior with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Savior were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Church History, Book III, Chapter VII.)

Eusebius failed to realize, or admit, that the Gospels’ authors had used Josephus to create Jesus. Justin Martyr and Tertullian made the same mistake. Some modern Christian apologists still, perhaps erroneously, think Jesus predicted the future. (http://www.ukapologetics.net/09/AD70.htm).
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14-02-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 08:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 08:03 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Wasn't there something about their secretaries too, Chas?

I think something like Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln and Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. Consider

The point, of course, that one can find 'correlations' wherever.

Conspiracy theorists and other wackos do it all the time, convincing themselves that there is meaning where there is only trivial coincidence. We get them here rather too often.

I don't get it why anyone would think Atwill (and meSad) was a "conspiracy theorist" or a "wacko."

We have a Roman government that made it an art to rewrite history, to make themselves look good. They controlled a lot of literature.

We have a troublesome bunch of religious fanatics (the Jews) repeatedly causing the government grief, and we have it from many historians that the main reason they did that was because they thought they were so very special and so very different and superior to pagans.

Surely it makes sense that the government would have used propaganda to suppress the Jews.

It is not a wacko idea. It is common sense.

It only sounds outlandish because it has not been widely accepted.
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14-02-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
There is no doubt that the Flavians were antagonistic towards Messianic Jews, even after the war. Vespasian imposed a special tax on all Jews in the Empire, in much the same way the rest of Europe imposed economic restrictions on Germany after World War 1.
It seems there were three tools the Roman government used to try to control the Jews; military might, economic suppression, and propaganda.
This neatly explains how Christianity, a pro-Roman religion reliant on the Gospels and said to promote pacifism and obedience, did not, in fact, emerge from a Jewish Judean cult in a nation that had over a one hundred year history of a militant struggle against Rome, but in reality materialized from Rome itself.
It explains why Yeshua, who was probably a political insurgent, was sometimes portrayed as a pacifist preacher. It is why “Jesus” referred to Jews (his own companions!) who rebelled against Rome as a “wicked generation.” It could be why the “second coming” of Jesus never happened; it was Titus who came instead. It may be why the true identities of all the four Gospel authors are unknown. It is one possible reason why the Gospels were first written in Greek, a language that would have been foreign to Yeshua, and why the Gospels are so often anti Semitic, yet in places tried to also appeal to fundamentalist Jews. It would explain why members of the Roman imperial family such as Flavius Clemens, later said (by some) to be the fourth pope, Bernice, Titus’ mistress, and Flavia Domitilla, Vespasian’s granddaughter, were said to be “Christians.” If so, they were the first Christians in name only, as they could not have believed in their own spoof. It is why the first Christian churches had a hierarchy based on Roman, not Jewish, (and not Nazarene) principles.

Propaganda was a powerful tool in Roman times, just as it is today. Public opinion was easily manipulated, because people did not have the means to check out the facts. Atwill thinks the Flavians did not intend sophisticated, educated people (like modern readers) to read the Gospels as serious literature or history. The Gospels were written for militant Jews, people Josephus referred to as “slaves” and “scum,” and for gullible Gentiles, the hoi polloi, the common people. At the time, only the upper tier of people, the more educated, were expected to recognize the parallels in Josephus’ works.

Perhaps it was no big secret, at the time, amongst the rulers in Rome. It was too subtle a deception to be ever widely recognized or understood by the common people. Titus’ invented religion, the one said to be the basis of western morality, took hold partly because common people did not have the intellectual armor to guard against it.

If this theory is true, the Gospels were a very black comedy, and Christianity was a clever, and in one sense humorous, product of the broader struggle that had been going on since Alexander the Great in 333 BCE; that between Hellenism with its polytheism, cleverness and inclusivity, and Judaism’s monotheism, faith and exclusivity.
The multiculturalist Jesus’ injunctions to love your enemies, turn the other cheek, aspire to poverty, be content with misery, to dream about heaven, be afraid of hell, think like children and pay your taxes, take on a more profound and rather cynical meaning, because they were intended to pacify peasants, slaves and religious fanatics.
Christians may have been unwittingly worshipping Titus Flavius for nearly 2000 years! If so, Titus, lying in his grave, has had an embarrassed, ashamed expression on his face for the last two millennia. The creation he helped invent grew into a much larger monster than he could ever, in his wildest dreams, have imagined.

This theory may be thought of as complementing the hypothesis that Paul’s Christianity originated as part of a government plot too. Paul probably wrote well before the Flavians, yet there is a good reason why similar propaganda about a Christ (but not yet about a Jesus) could have started earlier, in Paul’s day; the Roman administration under Nero was trying (unsuccessfully, as it turned out) to prevent a war with the Jews. As mentioned, Paul unambiguously implies in one of his letters (Philippians) that he has a cordial relationship with members of Nero’s household. He also promoted submission to Roman authorities. There would have been bureaucrats in the government’s administration who might have worked with Paul, who would later work with the Flavians.
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14-02-2015, 09:19 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 06:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  One of the points that AtWill makes a big deal of is that all his analogies between Titus and Jesus, and there are about 40 of them, occur in the same chronological order in the gospels as they do in Josephus' "Wars of the Jews."

I have not had the time or the energy to check out this claim, but I suspect that what he says is true otherwise he wouldn't say it.

Even though some of these analogies are a little weak and dubious, if you think about it, it really is quite remarkable that they do occur in the same order.

I'd say there is some fact-fitting and invention going on.

And, of course, there are all the actually important facts of Titus's life that aren't even remotely parallel.

Lincoln-Kennedy parallels:
  • Both presidents were elected to the House of Representatives in '46.
  • Both presidents were elected to the presidency in '60.
  • Lincoln defeated incumbent Vice President John C. Breckenridge for the presidency in 1860; Kennedy defeated incumbent Vice President Richard M. Nixon for the presidency in 1960.
  • Both their predecessors left office in their seventies and retired to Pennsylvania. James Buchanan, whom Lincoln succeeded, retired to Lancaster Township; Dwight D. Eisenhower, whom Kennedy succeeded, retired to Gettysburg.
  • Both their Vice Presidents and successors were Southern Democrats named Johnson (Andrew Johnson and Lyndon B. Johnson) who were born in '08.
  • Both presidents were concerned with the problems of black Americans and made their views strongly known in '63. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862, which took effect in 1863. In 1963, Kennedy presented his reports to Congress on Civil Rights, and the same year was the famous March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.
  • Both presidents were shot on a Friday in the presence of their wives. Both Fridays preceded a major holiday observed within the week.
  • Both presidents were accompanied by another couple.
  • The male companion of the other couple was wounded by the assassin.
  • Both presidents had a son die during their presidency.
  • Lincoln was shot by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theatre; Kennedy was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald in a Lincoln automobile, made by Ford.
  • Both presidents' last names have 7 letters.
  • There are 6 letters in each Johnson's first name.
  • After shooting Lincoln, Booth ran from a theatre to a warehouse; after shooting Kennedy, Oswald ran from a warehouse to a theatre.
  • Both Johnsons were succeeded as President in '69 by Republicans whose mothers were named Hannah.
  • Both assassins died in the same month as their victim in a state adjacent to the state of their birth.
  • Both assassins were Southern white males born in the late '30s, who were in their mid-20s.
  • Both assassins were killed before being tried, by men who were reared in the North, changed their name as adults, and were bachelors.
  • Both assassins had 15 letters in their name

"And, of course, there are all the actually important facts of Titus's life that aren't even remotely parallel."

Such as?

And...so what if there are facts about Titus that don't match with Jesus? That doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was not based on Titus.
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14-02-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(09-02-2015 02:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just come across an 83 minute version of Joseph Atwill's documentary on the beginnings of Christianity. It seems to be longer and better than the previous version that I watched. Versions of this documentary seem to come and go on youtube, so anyone who is interested in it should watch it before it disappears again. It is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5CBJwfZEUE

To those of you don't know me, I have been researching the history of early Christianity for the last eight years or so, and have written my own book that is about to be published, so I know a little about the topic. I'm seriously impressed with Atwill's ideas. In a nutshell, he proposes the whole Christian story was invented by the Roman government as anti Jewish propaganda. There are a number of other commentators on the documentary who agree with him.

I suggest that anyone with the remotest interest in the history of the beginnings of Christianity should watch this.

I just can't go there. I have him pinned on the wall with other nuts like Earl Doherty.

They both constantly go from a - e while ignoring b, c, and d.

And that is why they both receive horrible reviews.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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14-02-2015, 09:44 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 09:37 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 02:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just come across an 83 minute version of Joseph Atwill's documentary on the beginnings of Christianity. It seems to be longer and better than the previous version that I watched. Versions of this documentary seem to come and go on youtube, so anyone who is interested in it should watch it before it disappears again. It is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5CBJwfZEUE

To those of you don't know me, I have been researching the history of early Christianity for the last eight years or so, and have written my own book that is about to be published, so I know a little about the topic. I'm seriously impressed with Atwill's ideas. In a nutshell, he proposes the whole Christian story was invented by the Roman government as anti Jewish propaganda. There are a number of other commentators on the documentary who agree with him.

I suggest that anyone with the remotest interest in the history of the beginnings of Christianity should watch this.

I just can't go there. I have him pinned on the wall with other nuts like Earl Doherty.

They both constantly go from a - e while ignoring b, c, and d.

And that is why they both receive horrible reviews.

Which horrible reviews are you referring to?
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