Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
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14-02-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
I think anyone who lightly dismisses Atwill's ideas has either failed to appreciate the depth of Jewish-Gentile antagonism in the first century, or underestimates the cleverness of the ancient Roman government, or else does not recognize how strongly Christianity has shaped our modern world.

There are many reputable scholars who do not buy into Atwill’s theory. There is today an entire academic industry built around studying early Christianity. Experts on the topic hold positions in universities. People write books about Jesus and the early Christians. If Atwill’s theory is accepted, all of a sudden there is very little of real substance left to discuss, and maybe that treads on a few toes, because many of the previously unknown questions are answered, and well answered, and the whole topic of Christianity loses its importance and intrigue. All these people would be left looking a little sheepish.

Then consider the priests and preachers and assorted hangers on who make a living, or even just those who derive a sense of purpose, out of teaching and proselytizing Christianity. If Atwill is right, they too might be out of a job and have egg on their faces.

It is perhaps, therefore, not surprising that some people resort to ad hominem attacks against Atwill, although it is a little disappointing that otherwise good historians sometimes do so.

Even if Atwill’s theory as a whole is wrong, there are still elements of it that ring loud and true. He has given us all something to think about, particularly by pointing out the parallels between the Gospels and the works of Josephus. There will always be differing opinions about the details, yet I think that the essential premise of his hypothesis is that the government created the Gospels to undermine messianic Judaism, and it has a lot of merit.
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14-02-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 09:37 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 02:35 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've just come across an 83 minute version of Joseph Atwill's documentary on the beginnings of Christianity. It seems to be longer and better than the previous version that I watched. Versions of this documentary seem to come and go on youtube, so anyone who is interested in it should watch it before it disappears again. It is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5CBJwfZEUE

To those of you don't know me, I have been researching the history of early Christianity for the last eight years or so, and have written my own book that is about to be published, so I know a little about the topic. I'm seriously impressed with Atwill's ideas. In a nutshell, he proposes the whole Christian story was invented by the Roman government as anti Jewish propaganda. There are a number of other commentators on the documentary who agree with him.

I suggest that anyone with the remotest interest in the history of the beginnings of Christianity should watch this.

I just can't go there. I have him pinned on the wall with other nuts like Earl Doherty.

They both constantly go from a - e while ignoring b, c, and d.

And that is why they both receive horrible reviews.

tell me about b, c and d
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14-02-2015, 10:14 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 09:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 09:37 PM)Free Wrote:  I just can't go there. I have him pinned on the wall with other nuts like Earl Doherty.

They both constantly go from a - e while ignoring b, c, and d.

And that is why they both receive horrible reviews.

Which horrible reviews are you referring to?

Just Google Joe Atwill and look for them. They are everywhere.

He is such a nobody that he doesn't even have a Wikipedia page. He's been discredited by so many authors that it's embarrassing. Real scholars hardly pay any attention to him because of how absurd his theories actually are.

FFS Mark, the guy is a whack job.

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14-02-2015, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2015 10:59 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 10:14 PM)Free Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 09:44 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Which horrible reviews are you referring to?

Just Google Joe Atwill and look for them. They are everywhere.

He is such a nobody that he doesn't even have a Wikipedia page. He's been discredited by so many authors that it's embarrassing. Real scholars hardly pay any attention to him because of how absurd his theories actually are.

FFS Mark, the guy is a whack job.

I found one review that makes some good points that refute Atwill's ideas.

http://www.tektonics.org/books/csmessrvw.php

Tom Verenna's critique is just awful, full of ad hominems.

This one is full of logical inconsistencies...

http://endthelie.com/2013/10/12/joseph-a...-debunked/

Richard carrier, who I like and respect, gets a number of things wrong in his critique of Atwill too.

This one is just terrible too... we can discuss why if you're interested...

http://blogs.christianpost.com/dear-ephe...ory-18338/
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14-02-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Tektonics is home of that incredible douchebag, J. P. Holding. I don't put much stock in his jesus-inspired bullshit, either.

Honestly, the only time Atwill looks good is if you compare him to the absolute bullshit story that the jesus freaks put forward!

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14-02-2015, 10:59 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 10:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 09:37 PM)Free Wrote:  I just can't go there. I have him pinned on the wall with other nuts like Earl Doherty.

They both constantly go from a - e while ignoring b, c, and d.

And that is why they both receive horrible reviews.

tell me about b, c and d

Here's just one very obvious example:

Atwill claims that Christianity was created in the late 70s. So here's your "b, c & d."

b) Should we ignore Tacitus who shows us that Nero was persecuting the Christians a decade before the AD 70s?

c) It's virtually unanimous that most if not all of the letters attributed to Paul were written as far back as the AD 50s.

d) Atwill claims that Gospels and Josephus were created by the Flavians, while ignoring the fact that there is no Roman history of this, no Jewish history of this, no Christian history of this, and nobody in antiquity ever mentions this at all.

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14-02-2015, 11:01 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 10:41 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 10:14 PM)Free Wrote:  Just Google Joe Atwill and look for them. They are everywhere.

He is such a nobody that he doesn't even have a Wikipedia page. He's been discredited by so many authors that it's embarrassing. Real scholars hardly pay any attention to him because of how absurd his theories actually are.

FFS Mark, the guy is a whack job.

I found one review that makes some good points that refute Atwill's ideas.

http://www.tektonics.org/books/csmessrvw.php

Tom Verenna's critique is just awful, full of ad hominems.

This one is full of logical inconsistencies...

http://endthelie.com/2013/10/12/joseph-a...-debunked/

Richard carrier, who I like and respect, gets a number of things wrong in his critique of Atwill too.

This one is just terrible too... we can discuss why if you're interested...

http://blogs.christianpost.com/dear-ephe...ory-18338/


Here is Robert Price on Atwill.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

Mark ... Atwill is a fucking scam artist trying to make a few bucks on the Jesus issue.

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14-02-2015, 11:09 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 10:59 PM)Free Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 10:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  tell me about b, c and d

Here's just one very obvious example:

Atwill claims that Christianity was created in the late 70s. So here's your "b, c & d."

b) Should we ignore Tacitus who shows us that Nero was persecuting the Christians a decade before the AD 70s?

c) It's virtually unanimous that most if not all of the letters attributed to Paul were written as far back as the AD 50s.

d) Atwill claims that Gospels and Josephus were created by the Flavians, while ignoring the fact that there is no Roman history of this, no Jewish history of this, no Christian history of this, and nobody in antiquity ever mentions this at all.

Yep, b) was one of my contentions too.

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14-02-2015, 11:13 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 02:05 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(14-02-2015 10:59 PM)Free Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 10:13 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  tell me about b, c and d

Here's just one very obvious example:

Atwill claims that Christianity was created in the late 70s. So here's your "b, c & d."

b) Should we ignore Tacitus who shows us that Nero was persecuting the Christians a decade before the AD 70s?

c) It's virtually unanimous that most if not all of the letters attributed to Paul were written as far back as the AD 50s.

d) Atwill claims that Gospels and Josephus were created by the Flavians, while ignoring the fact that there is no Roman history of this, no Jewish history of this, no Christian history of this, and nobody in antiquity ever mentions this at all.

Ok, thanks for replying.

As to your point B and C… no one knows if the comments made by Tacitus in the early second century were genuine or not. Let's assume they were. Please digest this. Forget Atwill for a moment. I think there was talk of a Christ long before the gospels were written. I agree with you that Paul wrote before the gospels and before the Flavians and before the first Jewish War. People assume Paul was writing about Jesus but that is one really big assumption. Paul was writing about a Christ. I strongly suspect that Paul's Christ and Jesus were only merged together early in the second century. In the past I have rabbeted on about this ad nauseam on this forum. So there is little doubt that a type of Christianity did exist before the gospels were written, but it was one that knew nothing of Jesus (who was created in the gospels).

Atwill says very little about Paul, although he apparently is going to have a new book that gives his explanation of Paul.

What I have just written above would make sense of the fact that outside the gospels there is no first century Biblical author that talks about the miracles or the sayings or the life of Jesus. All they talk about is a crucified and resurrected Christ as per Paul.

As to point D, it was never a common knowledge. It was meant to be a secret. The deception wouldn't have worked if it was common knowledge.
Yes it is guesswork on Atwill's part. Yet it is an educated guess with a lot of circumstantial evidence. Consider the following. No one knows for sure who originally wrote the fucking gospels. All the evangelical types and all the historians are all guessing. Atwill is just another historian having a good guess. So he is no more "wacky" than all the others.
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14-02-2015, 11:36 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Why don't we pause and ask ourselves a question. Who did write the original gospels?

Answer… no one knows. There are all sorts of guesses, And they are all very broad such as "Gentile Christians," "Jewish Christians," "Jews living in Alexandria," and others.

I challenge anyone on this forum to state definitively that they know who wrote the gospels. If you're going to categorically deny that it was the government who wrote them, then you at least have to come up with an alternative more plausible hypothesis.

Here we have Atwill saying that he thinks it was the government, and all these people are shooting him off at the kneecaps and accusing him of being an idiot, yes he's making an assumption that is entirely logical. And... they don't know who wrote the gospels.... So are not able to put forward a plausible alternative hypothesis.

There is no good reason to not have a firm suspicion that the gospels were written by the very people that were very good at writing such things... the government bureaucracy. They had the resources and the money to do it. They had control of much of the literature that was in the empire. Consider how they destroyed all messianic Jewish literature (other than the dead sea scrolls).
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