Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-02-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
As long as we all agree on principle that Christianity is a lie, I think we can all still get along.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
12-02-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
This is why I love being here, outside of the members I enjoy chatting with, I learn something every day, and I have been at this for many years as well, but then I read stuff from Mark, minimalist, robby etc and I am like, damn, I need to go hit the books some more. Blush Problem is I have all of these things I want to dig into, research deeper and write about, like Mark is doing, but life is just 10 lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag right now Weeping

I have a pile of books I haven't even cracked open yet....ah...someday.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like goodwithoutgod's post
12-02-2015, 11:22 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 09:33 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  As long as we all agree on principle that Christianity is a lie, I think we can all still get along.

All religions are lies. And they all serve the same purpose. Control.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Minimalist's post
12-02-2015, 11:27 PM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
I agree minimalist. I just mentioned Christianity because it was the topic at hand. And honestly Christianity is more often the target of my wrath because in Oklahoma there is no escaping it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 01:55 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
Oh, no. Not Oklahoma. How do you stand it? Only Texas would be worse.

And just call me Min. Easier to type.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Minimalist's post
13-02-2015, 02:26 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2015 02:58 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 04:38 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:This is how I introduce my chapter on first century Christianity. It is difficult to write about something that may not have existed!

Oh, I don't know. Sci-Fi writers do it all the time.


Here are the introductory paragraphs to Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle.

Once upon a time, someone wrote a story about a man who was God.

We don't know who that someone was or where he wrote his story. We are not even sure when he wrote it but we do know that several decades had passed since the supposed events he told of. Later generations gave this storyteller the name of "Mark," but if that was his real name, it was only by coincidence.

Other writers followed after, and they enlarged on the first man's tale. They borrowed much of what he had written, reworked it in their own particular ways and put in some additional material. By the time another half century had passed almost everyone who followed the religion of these storytellers accepted their work as an account of actual historical events and a real historical man. And so did the people who came afterwards, for close to two thousand years.


Now, I post that mainly for the Ockam's Razor effect. Doherty's version does not require a vast government conspiracy for which there is no evidence. Instead it relies on the well-established traits of human stupidity and gullibility. As Julius Caesar once commented: Men willingly believe what they wish. That explains much of religion all by itself.

I like Earl Doherty. He is a good writer.

I think there is very good circumstantial evidence that the Roman government created Christianity. I cannot absolutely prove it and I did not state that it is definitely a fact, yet the possibility should be considered and discussed.

Someone created it. No one knows for sure who. I'm yet to hear any other really plausible theories.

Permit me to explain a little more...

The antagonism between Jews and Romans was probably the key factor responsible for the birth of Christianity.

Robert Eisenman, in his exhaustively researched book James, Brother of Jesus, presents a sensible assessment of Jesus’ time and the decades afterwards.
Eisenman divides Palestine into two power blocs: the rulers and the populists. The rulers were the Romans and those to whom they gave power. They included the Herodian puppet dynasty, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, and Gentiles, including small groups of Paul’s “Christians.” The populists were the native population, most of who were opposed to Roman domination. They included the Nazarenes, the Qumran community, and various other groups united under James, Yeshua’s brother. Eisenman portrays James as a xenophobic fundamentalist Jewish leader.

There was more to Jewish antagonism toward Rome than just political and economic suppression. The Jews were a passionately proud people who imagined themselves as God’s special subjects. Despite their countless sectarian affiliations, most of them were committed to conserving their common Jewish culture to the exclusion of all alternatives. Some Jews tried to tell the world about the power and majesty of their God, and they dreamed about bringing all nations under “his” rule. These Jews, obviously brainwashed since childhood by priests and other fanatics with delusions about God and their own importance in the universe, were disillusioned with being ruled by Rome and the impoverishment they suffered as a consequence.

The Jews wanted to be what the Romans actually were: the people at the top. In this they grossly overestimated their own importance and abilities, as the Jews had no legacy of any long-lasting government, rarely had an army organized enough to be effective, and were notorious for fighting among themselves. It could be said that many Jews had their heads in the clouds, hoping for a hero messiah who would create the kingdom of God, whereas the Romans had a very real and effective government, army and financial resources.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, hidden until 1947, are like a time capsule that takes us back nearly 2000 years into this Jewish world as seen from their perspective, so the Scrolls offer a unique and invaluable glimpse into the past, because Romans destroyed nearly all other Jewish messianic literature.

Eisenman and other scholars, including Douglas Lockhart and Peter Cresswell, claim that the scrolls include copies of James’ sermons thundering against “the Enemy” and “the Liar,” referring to someone daring to teach dogma at odds with the traditions of observant Jews. There is only one likely candidate James could have been referring to, and that is Paul, who James may have considered to be a traitor and a Roman agent. It is ironic that Jesus’ brother might have referred to the creator of Christian theology (Paul) as a liar.

The Scrolls give us a far more realistic assessment of Jewish first-century Palestine than the Gospels. No wonder the Vatican had a strong interest in their interpretation in the decades after their discovery.

If someone were to make a good movie based on the real John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, and James, and it was done well enough to convince the public, it would be a blockbuster that would rock all Christian establishments.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 02:29 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 05:00 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Marcion’s Pauline Epistles were Romans, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Laodiceans (Ephesians), Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians and Philemon.

Yes...but all we know is what they say "now." We don't know what they might have said before the proto-orthodox scrubbed them.


You know, as long as we're throwing out random thoughts, let me let loose with one of my flights of fancy.

Ehrman maintains that when studying ancient manuscripts that the oldest manuscript we have is closest to the original text because of the tendency of scribes to screw up. He maintains that we do not have the originals so the earliest copies are the best we can do.

What if he is wrong? Maybe what we have are fragments of the originals? Carrier points out that xtianity was a mystery cult if you look at the various gnostic texts. What changed that and caused them to start writing stuff down? My answer is Marcion. Marcion established the idea of a canon, which was not an original idea. The Egyptians had holy writings, so did the Jews by then. But establishing a written scripture was a means of bringing in the elites who were the only parts of society which could read that stuff.

Marcion has always been the key for me. Before him, xtianity is a pile of wishful thinking. After him, we have written and datable records.

Re "Yes...but all we know is what they say "now." We don't know what they might have said before the proto-orthodox scrubbed them."

Agreed.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 02:30 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 05:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  One more point about Marcion, Mark. Timing.

Marcion's highly anti-jewish religion emerges c 140 AD or within 5 years of the end of the bar Kokhba revolt...and many jews were calling bar Kokhba "the messiah" for good measure.

After 3 revolts within 70 years one can well imagine that the Greco-Roman citizens of the empire had had it with the jews who were in first place on every one's shit list.
What better time to differentiate oneself from the despised jews than right after the end of the last revolt?

Good point. Agreed.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 02:32 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 09:06 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Great reading. I feel dumb.

Thanks, and I do know that you are not just referring to my writing.

I'll spit out a little more because of your encouragement.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2015, 02:38 AM
RE: Full version of Joseph Atwill's Documentary
(12-02-2015 11:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(12-02-2015 09:33 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  As long as we all agree on principle that Christianity is a lie, I think we can all still get along.

All religions are lies. And they all serve the same purpose. Control.

Agreed.

Gods have existed ever since people wanted their questions answered. Where does rain come from? Rain was important for drinking water and the growing of crops. Sometimes it does not rain for weeks. Why? Man did not have the scientific skills, equipment, or knowledge to answer such questions, but needed to know. Man invented the rain god. When there was no rain, men tried to appease this god. They prayed, sang, beat drums, danced, and even made sacrifices to the rain god. When rain eventually came, as it inevitably does, men thanked the rain god for answering their prayers.

Most ancient gods were originally the products of puzzled people trying to comprehend and have some control over things they did not understand. Gods made sense to people who did not know any better.

The rain god is only one example. When ancient civilizations needed a helping hand, whether it was to control the elements, or to help fight each other, or to explain something, they imagined a god to fill in the gap. These gods were invisible and lived in secret places. Yahweh was originally the “god of the armies,” the “lord of hosts,” who would help the Jews in battle. Nowadays we do not need a worthless rain god because we know how weather systems work, and we should not want an ineffectual war god either, because we have armies and weapons.

If people had been left to reason things out, all gods would have disappeared - replaced at first by common sense and intuition, and then by scientific explanations. Unfortunately, a largish part of humanity was not left alone to follow this logical development. Certain groups of greedy people saw a business opportunity. They called themselves priests, prophets, rabbis, or imams. They wrote and promoted holy books, made out they were wise, and claimed that they understood God’s instructions. They were setting up businesses to exploit the average punter. They used a whole arsenal of invented untrue nonsense to control and fleece gullible people.

These men are still in business today. Many of them are too loud. Most of them do not have real jobs that contribute goods or services to society. They cause an awful lot of irrational thinking, time wasting, prejudice, terrorism and bad feeling. The world would be a better, happier, and safer place without them.

Religion is a relic from our primitive past still promoted by raconteurs to give themselves power and an income.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: