Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
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28-06-2015, 06:38 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
At work.

Sorry for being brief.

So....the answer that you are satisfied with is, "We can understand stuff... therefor deity." ?

Of note is that the above point gives no information about said diety.

Again, sorry for short post and probably not being terribly coherant.

Much cheers to all.
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28-06-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
(28-06-2015 06:19 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Of course science is with flaw in that it closes doors whilst opening one. My evidence is in my personal experience and the fact that all but us has order. The Universe and it's creator are God. How can you really seriously intellectually argue that. Everything from viruses to solar systems and beyond follow order and exhibit balance. We the ones blessed with conscience thauoght are the only entities foolish enough to deny this Devine order of being.

Yeah, that wont cut it here buddy. Sorry but your personal experience is meaningless.

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28-06-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
What is experience but perception or reality?
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28-06-2015, 07:32 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
Let me put it differently.
Call it circular if you will for all revolves.

We are all righteous, evil, and chaos. To deny such is chaos, and, or evil.
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28-06-2015, 07:40 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
Oooohhhh.... Do we have another woo woo guy? My offer stands as follows: I will debate and discuss any theist who can give a coherent definition of god.

What is god? What exactly do you mean by this term? Why should we bother to worship this?

Also, could you explain what you mean by this:

Quote:We are all righteous, evil, and chaos. To deny such is chaos, and, or evil.

I'm not sure what idea you are trying to communicate with this.
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28-06-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
(28-06-2015 06:19 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  My evidence is in my personal experience and the fact that all but us has order.

Your personal experience is not evidence. Chaos and order both exist in many places and at many scales so "all but us" does not have order.

Quote:The Universe and it's creator are God. How can you really seriously intellectually argue that.

Easily. The universe is the universe and we have a perfectly good word for that. Calling it god just adds a lot of baggage that doesn't seem to apply. We also don't know that it was "created" and saying it was presupposes a creator so you are using your conclusion as a premise.

Quote:Everything from viruses to solar systems and beyond follow order and exhibit balance.

That statement appears to be meaningless. You'd have to define what you mean by order and balance first since they don't apply as far as I can tell.

Quote:We the ones blessed with conscience thauoght are the only entities foolish enough to deny this Devine order of being.

Are you claiming that other entities think that a god does exist? I've never seen any evidence that anything else even has a concept of a god at all so we are not only the only ones known to deny it, we're the only ones known to claim it as well.

Are you also claiming that there are no other beings anywhere in the universe that have the concept of gods? You make a lot of blanket statements that don't appear to be based on actual evidence.

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28-06-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
You just stayed yourself that everything has chaos and order throughout the Universe. But you ask for proof of ballance. You say we are but can't say why. We came from the Universe. The Universe came from something. It is our creator. We are privelidged to see but are blind. Try to keep an opened mind. Science really does give a biassed view.
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28-06-2015, 08:10 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
(28-06-2015 07:55 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  You just stayed yourself that everything has chaos and order throughout the Universe. But you ask for proof of ballance.

I have no idea what you mean when you use the word balance. I see evidence of chaos and order at different scales across the universe but that doesn't support any of your assertions.

Quote:You say we are but can't say why.

"Why" is a leading question. It implies that there was an intent and you haven't demonstrated that. I do admit I don't know how the universe came to be as we see it but that's where I have to stop. You don't know either but you go on to assume much more and have no evidence.

Quote:We came from the Universe.

Oddly phrased, but OK...

Quote:The Universe came from something.[quote]

We don't know that. We can't apply our everyday experience within the universe to the universe itself. The rules within the system may not apply when you try to step outside it.

[quote]It is our creator.

That, again, implies an intelligence and an intent. We evolved within the universe but that doesn't make the universe our creator in any meaningful sense of the word.

Quote:Try to keep an opened mind.

The trick is to keep an open mind but not so open that you let your brain fall out. I am open to evidence. I am not open to vacuous claims based on no evidence and little apparent understanding.

Quote:Science really does give a biassed view.

Irony is always funny.

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28-06-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
I find myself wondering what theists think science is. Because they aren't using the word the way I know of it being used.
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28-06-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: Fundamental problem with presuppostional apologetics
How can you agree that we are of the Universe but disagree that the Universe is from something just because your scientific knowledge breaks down at that point?
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