Fundamentalists are hypocrites
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07-11-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
uar
(07-11-2013 02:25 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
Quote:Well you shouldn't accept the current model of the universe because the math doesn't work. Our model falls apart at temperatures greater than or equal to the planck temperature. The math actually tells us our model is wrong. Now despite being wrong it still gives us useful and correct predictions in most circumstances.....but so did epicycles of old.
Heywood, you fail, again.

The thing that makes science so beautiful, is that as new information is discovered, old ideas evolve based on this. If someday we find that gravity behaves differently in another area of the universe, we would not just throw out the theory of gravity. Instead, we would modify it based on these new observations. You error in saying 'despite it being wrong.' It is not wrong, just simply has not fully been understood.
We will never 'discover' that evolution(or gravity,etc.) was wrong--the observations and data surrounding it are immense. We may find new mechanisms about the process, and modify our ideas based on that.


Creationists will not change their ideas based on new evidence. They try to punch holes in scientific discoveries and say "ahh! ya see, it's 99% true, not 100%, so it must be god. Science is fail."

Creationists like to bring up times that science has been wrong. Science never claimed to be infallible. Sometimes flaws are found, which don't denigrate the sciences, but actually make them stronger.

Jaguar, you are shifting the topic to something else. The OP claimed that he needed the math to work to support a world view. I was merely pointing out that we do not have a model of the universe where the math works. We have a model of the universe where the math sometimes works. I was pointing out that sometimes even great scientists do back flips to support a world view. The popularity of the multiverse is one such backflip because its necessary to explain away the apparent fine tuning of the universe.

Fundamentalist are not the only hypocrites.
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07-11-2013, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2013 02:55 PM by Chas.)
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
Good rant, nat.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Stop being so irritating by asking stupid questions. Epicycles are an example of a flawed model that gave useable results. GR gives useable results too even though it is flawed. The OP claimed he could not accept something if the math didn't work. Well in our current model of the universe, the math sometime works...and sometimes it don't.

The mathematical model works up to its defined limits.

Yes Chas, there are limits on the usefulness of the epicyclical model and there are limits on the usefulness of GR and SR.
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07-11-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  The mathematical model works up to its defined limits.

Yes Chas, there are limits on the usefulness of the epicyclical model and there are limits on the usefulness of GR and SR.

The epicycle model is fundamentally, provably wrong - there is no comparison.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:30 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Fundamentalists are hypocrites"

Yes, maybe. But we're saved.

...A pastor greets his neighbor and invited him to visit his church, just down the block from their homes. "That place is full of hypocrites!" exclaims the neighbor.

"We have room for one more if you want to visit," drawls the pastor.

Saved...from what?Huh

Saved from logical thinking? I would agree.

Damn, another follower of The Terse and Deadly Way. Bowing

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:30 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Fundamentalists are hypocrites"

Yes, maybe. But we're saved.

...A pastor greets his neighbor and invited him to visit his church, just down the block from their homes. "That place is full of hypocrites!" exclaims the neighbor.

"We have room for one more if you want to visit," drawls the pastor.

Saved...from what?Huh

Saved from logical thinking? I would agree.

Saved from God. God, the Father, sent Jesus to earth to "sacrifice" himself so that the Father could find it in his heart and forgive us and not send us to the hell that he created.

It's a really fucked up premise, when you think about it. Especially when Jesus kept telling us to forgive other people without condition. Why couldn't God simply have done that? Why the whole sacrifice-that's-not-actually-a-sacrifice charade?
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07-11-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:45 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Yes Chas, there are limits on the usefulness of the epicyclical model and there are limits on the usefulness of GR and SR.

The epicycle model is fundamentally, provably wrong - there is no comparison.

We know GR is wrong. Pretty damn close to being right.....Almost right...So right you could navigate across the universe with it....but fundamentally....we know it is flawed.

The comparison is valid because both models gave useful results but inevitably break down....both models are wrong.
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07-11-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:30 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  Saved...from what?Huh

Saved from logical thinking? I would agree.

Saved from God. God, the Father, sent Jesus to earth to "sacrifice" himself so that the Father could find it in his heart and forgive us and not send us to the hell that he created.

It's a really fucked up premise, when you think about it. Especially when Jesus kept telling us to forgive other people without condition. Why couldn't God simply have done that? Why the whole sacrifice-that's-not-actually-a-sacrifice charade?

Oh no! This God guy seems like an angry sort, and very emotionally confused. No I dabbled in psychology, maybe I can help him shed those sado-masochist ways.

Saved. Is there a girl scout badge for that? Idea
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07-11-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  The epicycle model is fundamentally, provably wrong - there is no comparison.

We know GR is wrong. Pretty damn close to being right.....Almost right...So right you could navigate across the universe with it....but fundamentally....we know it is flawed.

The comparison is valid because both models gave useful results but inevitably break down....both models are wrong.

Please, point me to valid sources that say we KNOW it is wrong. Our understanding of it is incomplete, but saying it is wrong seems asinine.

Flawed =/= wrong.
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07-11-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  The epicycle model is fundamentally, provably wrong - there is no comparison.

We know GR is wrong. Pretty damn close to being right.....Almost right...So right you could navigate across the universe with it....but fundamentally....we know it is flawed.

The comparison is valid because both models gave useful results but inevitably break down....both models are wrong.

Limited is not the same as wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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