Fundamentalists are hypocrites
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07-11-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Fundamentalists are hypocrites"

Yes, maybe. But we're saved.

...A pastor greets his neighbor and invited him to visit his church, just down the block from their homes. "That place is full of hypocrites!" exclaims the neighbor.

"We have room for one more if you want to visit," drawls the pastor.

No. You claim to be "saved". In fact you are no different than anyone. The term has no meaning. "Saved" humans are no different from non-saved ones. That term has no meaning in the culture that Christianity developed from; your Jebus told the young man "keep the commandments" when he asked him what he needed to do, he didn't say "just wait, I'll save you". Your little vignette is pathetic, as is your general knowledge of what you pretend to spout about.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-11-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
"Eintein's general theory of relativity becomes a theory of gravity. General relativity describes gravity as the geometrical curvature of four-dimensional spacetime. In this description, matter and energy curve spacetime in their vicinity, and objects moving through the curved spacetime follow the straightest possible paths."

That is the basic definition of GR from Volume 2 of University Physics by Richard Wolfson. how is that wrong? Where is the flaw?
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07-11-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 03:17 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(07-11-2013 02:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We know GR is wrong. Pretty damn close to being right.....Almost right...So right you could navigate across the universe with it....but fundamentally....we know it is flawed.

The comparison is valid because both models gave useful results but inevitably break down....both models are wrong.

Please, point me to valid sources that say we KNOW it is wrong. Our understanding of it is incomplete, but saying it is wrong seems asinine.

No, we understand GR perfectly well. We know that it doesn't work in the center of a black hole or at the moment of the big bang for instance. A valid model of the universe should be able model those things. We know GR is flawed because it can't model those things....the maths ain't there. That's why there is a search for a new and more accurate model. String Theory is the product of that search.

If GR were true, why would we be searching for a theory which is better?
Flawed =/= wrong.
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07-11-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
By this logic we should toss the ideal gas laws since they don't work in the center of the sun. We don't. We simply apply different rules and formulas to them.

Just because we have yet to find the modifier or formula for black holes doesn't mean we should scrap the entire theory.
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07-11-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 03:46 PM)natachan Wrote:  By this logic we should toss the ideal gas laws since they don't work in the center of the sun. We don't. We simply apply different rules and formulas to them.

Just because we have yet to find the modifier or formula for black holes doesn't mean we should scrap the entire theory.

Your the one who said you needed the math to work. It seems now your willing to accept the theory even though the math only sometimes works. It seems now your okay with math that sometimes works because of your faith in some unknown formula where the math always works.
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07-11-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
I'm flipping through this chapter on general relativity. Admittedly I'm doing this while focusing on another chapter on electromagnetism, but I think I understand what it's getting at. And the equations I'm looking at seem to work just fine. Only discrepancy I see is in the special case of black holes and that makes me think, again, of the situation with the ideal gas laws. Your assertion is just another "god of the gaps" one.

I had to look up what epicycles were, and no.
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07-11-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 04:02 PM)natachan Wrote:  I'm flipping through this chapter on general relativity. Admittedly I'm doing this while focusing on another chapter on electromagnetism, but I think I understand what it's getting at. And the equations I'm looking at seem to work just fine. Only discrepancy I see is in the special case of black holes and that makes me think, again, of the situation with the ideal gas laws. Your assertion is just another "god of the gaps" one.

I had to look up what epicycles were, and no.

My assertion is not what you assume it is. Go back and re-read this thread, note any assertions I actually make, and then ask yourself how your description, "god of the gaps" fits the assertions I actually made.

I'll help you out a bit. I have asserted that GR is mostly right but not right. I have asserted that you claim you require the math to be right to believe in something. I have asserted that scientists sometimes engage in "backflips". How can any of these assertions be described as "god of the gaps"?
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07-11-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
You have asserted that GR is wrong in the case of black holes, and use this to discount it and argue it should be tossed. I argue that this is like saying we need to toss out the ideal gas laws since they don't work in the center of the sun. You dismiss this as blind faith in a scientific worldview. How is this NOT a god of the gaps scenario?
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07-11-2013, 04:50 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 04:25 PM)natachan Wrote:  You have asserted that GR is wrong in the case of black holes, and use this to discount it and argue it should be tossed. I argue that this is like saying we need to toss out the ideal gas laws since they don't work in the center of the sun. You dismiss this as blind faith in a scientific worldview. How is this NOT a god of the gaps scenario?

No

I have argued you and only you should toss it because you refuse to believe something if the math doesn't work. Well in the case of GR the math doesn't work out as you have discovered by your research into black holes.

It seems that you are backing off your initial position and admitting you can believe things in which the math only sometimes works. Right? You can backflip a little right?
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07-11-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: Fundamentalists are hypocrites
(07-11-2013 01:51 PM)natachan Wrote:  This is going to be a rant, and I'm sorry. I'm just getting a little irritated.

I lurk the forums a lot, and I lurk the internet, partially because I don't have time to post much (I"m a full-time student, work full time, and am recently engaged) and it takes time to come up with a post that actually says something that is coherent. But this is something that is just grating on me.

I'm not an anti-theist, not really. I believe that too strong a faith IS toxic, but I won't push people away from a middle of the road faith. My mother is still devoutly Catholic, and sends two of my sibling to Catholic schools where they get good educations in science in math. It looks like one of my siblings who is in said school might follow as a scientist or engineer. They all laugh when I mention those fundamentalists who claim the earth is six thousand years old and have been really understanding about my atheism. As such it is not religion itself I criticize, but literal biblical creation and fundamentalist faith.

Here I've been noting some of the arguments that the fundamentalists are using. And the monumental back flips they do in order to back up their assertions. They claim THEIR scientific evidence backs up their worldview that the earth is young. That the earth is the center of the universe. That the creatures all came into being in the form they have now. And at first I simply was miffed that they refused to see the simple facts. I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they actually believed this. Now I"m more irritated.

If I want to launch a rocket, I have to assume certain things. I have to assume the gravitational constant, I have to take into account the rotation of the earth, I have to calculate fuel consumption as a function of both changing mass and changing time. If I want a rocket to reach escape velocity and explore the rest of the universe I have to understand gravitational potential energy curves, the curvature of space and of time, I have to understand the location of the planets in order to maximize velocity. Bottom line: You WOULD NOT WANT a rocket scientist who did not believe in the curve of space and time, because the rocket would not be able to escape the solar system. You would not want one who did not believe the earth was rotating, because it would not be able to achieve orbit. By the same token you would not want someone doing research on new medicines not to believe in the stable and predictable decay of atomic isotopes. You would not want a doctor who did not believe that species change over time in order to adapt to their environment (ie: bacteria who are becoming immune to antibiotics). You would not want a CEO of any major corporation to believe that the world was going to end in less than 50 years.

If you believe ANY of these things the math SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK. I'm a math person. In order for me to accept something, the math has to be there. Our model of the universe is accepted because the math works. All the fundamentalists have to say is that if their theories are right their qualitative observations about the present world can be accepted. I don't care about qualitative observations, the math DOES NOT WORK.

What irritates me is that it's the knowledge and the equations working that allows for the existence of many of the things we need in this world. Electronics? The movement of subatomic particles creating electric fields over a set time. X Rays on soft tissue? Made possible by the short half-life of certain compounds that light up on X-rays. What this says to me is "it's ok if you are immoral unbelievers, so long as we get something out of it."

This is immensely hypocritical. They RELY upon the knowledge that they reject. They cannot function without it. Indeed, they would not want our services if we did not believe as we do since we could not do what we do in order to give them their services. But they damn us for the very view that makes those services possible. And THAT is what irritates me. Either we are told to do what we do while abandoning everything that makes it possible, or we are told that we should continue but that we are going to hell for it.

So true!

Think of the word fundamentalist.

Is it fundamental to the teachings of Christ to be so hateful and ignorant? No!

To be a true Christian Fundamentalist would probably be one of the best people of Earth.
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