Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
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23-10-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 01:21 AM)theBorg Wrote:  It is the notions of the technical mathematics, as it should be, because the Gödel is the respectful mathematician. So, there is no extension to the Philosophy and the Religion?

No, not really. Mathematics is a very precise art, yet when Russell and Whitehead composed the Principia Mathematica they were unable to arrive at a set of foundational mathematical principles. Gödel explains why they failed. Despite that, mathematics is a beautiful and eminently useful tool.

Philosophy and religion do not belong in the same category as mathematics. They are essentially just drawn-out thought experiments, so lacking in consistency and so variable in their expression and application that Gödel is of no help to them.

At most, as I did above, one can use Gödel to suggest why a petitio principii argument is a logical fallacy. Self-referential systems are not valid; therefore, when you try to use the Bible as evidence for its own claims we can simply dismiss it as invalid due to lack of external evidence.
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23-10-2016, 02:35 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 01:51 AM)Astreja Wrote:  No, not really. Mathematics is a very precise art, yet when Russell and Whitehead composed the Principia Mathematica they were unable to arrive at a set of foundational mathematical principles. Gödel explains why they failed. Despite that, mathematics is a beautiful and eminently useful tool.

Philosophy and religion do not belong in the same category as mathematics. They are essentially just drawn-out thought experiments, so lacking in consistency and so variable in their expression and application that Gödel is of no help to them.

At most, as I did above, one can use Gödel to suggest why a petitio principii argument is a logical fallacy. Self-referential systems are not valid; therefore, when you try to use the Bible as evidence for its own claims we can simply dismiss it as invalid due to lack of external evidence.

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23-10-2016, 02:46 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2016 02:51 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
Blind Faith is blind:

blind
blʌɪnd
adjective
1.
unable to see because of injury, disease, or a congenital condition.
"a blind man with a stick"
synonyms: visually impaired, unsighted, sightless, visionless, unseeing, stone blind, eyeless; More
2.
lacking perception, awareness, or judgement.
"a blind acceptance of the status quo"
synonyms: imperceptive, unperceptive, slow, obtuse, stupid, uncomprehending, unimaginative, insensitive, thick-

The second definition and synonyms apply especially

faith
feɪθ
noun
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More
2.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
"bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, persuasion, religious persuasion, religious belief, belief, code of

Once again the second definition is most apposite.

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23-10-2016, 05:00 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 01:51 AM)Astreja Wrote:  ..............
At most, as I did above, one can use Gödel to suggest why a petitio principii argument is a logical fallacy. Self-referential systems are not valid; therefore, when you try to use the Bible as evidence for its own claims we can simply dismiss it as invalid due to lack of external evidence.

Nevertheless, some theories can be proven completely?
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23-10-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(22-10-2016 11:27 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Gödel's contribution has only technical meaning (it is needed for the professional mathematicians) with no extend to philosophy and Religion, unless the Gödel's result would be formulated following simple way:

[quote]no theory can be proven completely. The blind faith remains.


The poser pretends he cares about science and mathematics while believing in a young Earth, your issues run a lot deeper than some obtuse argument where you force everything to fit your biases.

If you can't accept the scientific proof for an old age of the Earth because of your biblical bias, what's the point of arguing about this?

To quote the bible:

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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23-10-2016, 05:57 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 05:50 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  ......
If you can't accept the scientific proof for an old age of the Earth because of your biblical bias, what's the point of arguing about this? .......

Blah, blah, blah. Can the General Relativity be completely proven?
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23-10-2016, 06:05 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 05:57 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 05:50 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  ......
If you can't accept the scientific proof for an old age of the Earth because of your biblical bias, what's the point of arguing about this? .......

Blah, blah, blah. Can the General Relativity be completely proven?

Blah blah blah, are you going to post the CERN hoax next?

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23-10-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(22-10-2016 11:27 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Gödel's contribution has only technical meaning (it is needed for the professional mathematicians) with no extend to philosophy and Religion, unless the Gödel's result would be formulated following simple way:

Quote:no theory can be proven completely. The blind faith remains.

Do you agree? If yes, then ask me to debunk this absurd.

Scientific theories are inductive not deductive so they are confirmed or validated, not proved.

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23-10-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 06:50 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  ..........
Scientific theories are inductive not deductive so they are confirmed or validated, not proved.

How nice! Laugh out load So, the Gödel's theorems are not proven yet? Yes
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23-10-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
Borg's Theorm -

If you shotgun enough quasi-scientific liquified bovine excrement at the wall - something will eventually stick.

....

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The reality -- you need to paint, and the place takes on a foul odor....

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