Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-10-2016, 07:29 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2016 07:35 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(22-10-2016 11:27 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Gödel's contribution has only technical meaning (it is needed for the professional mathematicians) with no extend to philosophy and Religion, unless the Gödel's result would be formulated following simple way:

Quote:no theory can be proven completely. The blind faith remains.

Do you agree? If yes, then ask me to debunk this absurd.

No .That's not what it means.

(23-10-2016 12:52 AM)Astreja Wrote:  My understanding of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems is that [a] some mathematical axioms may be true but not provable, and [b] a system cannot validate itself.

Which in turn proves there is no True God®. At least not one both complete and consistent. .... except for Girly. Girly is True God®. ... And Bob.

(23-10-2016 01:51 AM)Astreja Wrote:  Philosophy and religion do not belong in the same category as mathematics. They are essentially just drawn-out thought experiments, so lacking in consistency and so variable in their expression and application that Gödel is of no help to them.

That's not nice. We owe our logic and reasoning faculties to philosophers both eastern and western. And I don't think there's much "thought-out" about religion. ... except the Mormons. And the Scientologists. Tongue

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
23-10-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 05:57 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 05:50 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  ......
If you can't accept the scientific proof for an old age of the Earth because of your biblical bias, what's the point of arguing about this? .......

Blah, blah, blah. Can the General Relativity be completely proven?

Every single observation made, even the most strange and costly ones, all of them showed the theory of relativity to be true, so far.

How about your delusion? Is it completely proven?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Deesse23's post
23-10-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 07:22 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 06:50 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  ..........
Scientific theories are inductive not deductive so they are confirmed or validated, not proved.

How nice! Laugh out load So, the Gödel's theorems are not proven yet? Yes

I was just pointing out that it is improper to speak of proving a theory. Theories are confirmed or validated, not proven. It would be improper to speak of the theory of relativity being proven since it a set of general principles.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
23-10-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(22-10-2016 11:27 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Gödel's contribution has only technical meaning (it is needed for the professional mathematicians) with no extend to philosophy and Religion, unless the Gödel's result would be formulated following simple way: no theory can be proven completely. The blind faith remains.

Do you agree? If yes, then ask me to debunk this absurd.

[Image: 1348714867706_9411501.png]

Laugh out load

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like SYZ's post
23-10-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(22-10-2016 11:27 PM)theBorg Wrote:  The Gödel's contribution has only technical meaning (it is needed for the professional mathematicians) with no extend to philosophy and Religion, unless the Gödel's result would be formulated following simple way:

Quote:no theory can be proven completely. The blind faith remains.

Do you agree? If yes, then ask me to debunk this absurd.

Godel's work on incompleteness states that any system capable of adequately classifying or representing statements of truth -- that is, a "complete" system, e.g. set-builder notation, logical propositions, etc -- would have within it the capacity to describe apparent statements that cannot be classified as true or false. Alfonso Church later identified the class of particularly problematic statements to the self-referetial. Any claim which does not engage in self-reference is safe from the problems described in the Incompleteness Theorems.

It says nothing about blind faith. Facepalm

It does, however, point out the impossibility of a truly omniscient being. (Yet again. It's not the first thing to have done that.) In particular viewing religion in the light of incompleteness, one sees a veritable army of neon signs pointing to propositions similar to the following:

A: "If God exists, then he cannot know that this sentence is true."

If the condition of God's existence is not met, then A is trivially true.

If God does exist and believes A to be true, and A is also true, then God does know that A is true and thus A becomes false, meaning that God cannot know it. This contradiction deductively shows that if God exists, then God cannot know the statement is true, thus proving A.

Thus, there is something that God cannot know, and thus no omniscient God can exist.

This also demonstrates that it is possible for everyone EXCEPT God to know that A is true. There is something that everyone EXCEPT God can know. That's because this statement only becomes self-referential when the know-er is God. For everyone else, self-reference does not come into play, and the hole in logic that Godel illustrated is avoided.

Whoever's been telling you that this stuff supports religion? STOP LISTENING TO THEM. They're making you look even more like a fool.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Reltzik's post
23-10-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
More spam from Borg. Ban this fucking ignorant presuppositional troll.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like Bucky Ball's post
23-10-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 12:33 AM)theBorg Wrote:  I am not your enemy, friends.

[Image: b02e7eeb1b32873a180b8adc8e3da139.jpg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
23-10-2016, 10:14 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
There's a huge difference between theBoogers and myself. I realize that science is not my strong point. I know what I don't know about science and what I do know and I'm wise enough to know the difference and not make threads advertising my stupidity. theBoogers brain has been so brainwashed and deluded by religious zealotry he can't tell the difference between evidence and religious mythology.

Geesh, what a tool. Facepalm

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like dancefortwo's post
23-10-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 09:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More spam from Borg. Ban this fucking ignorant presuppositional troll.

I don't think he has done anything particularly ban-worthy. Even his posts, while they frequently repeat similar themes, are ostensibly different topics and are not so many that they are spam.

And sadly, being boastfully ignorant is not a crime, even at TTA.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
23-10-2016, 10:37 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
Astreja Wrote:
Quote:
Quote:Philosophy and religion do not belong in the same category as mathematics. They are essentially just drawn-out thought experiments, so lacking in consistency and so variable in their expression and application that Gödel is of no help to them.

Hence the old joke:

What is the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher?

A mathematician only needs a pencil, paper and an eraser.

A philosopher does not recognise the need, or even existence, of erasers.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Gloucester's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: