Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
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23-10-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 08:21 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 07:22 AM)theBorg Wrote:  How nice! Laugh out load So, the Gödel's theorems are not proven yet? Yes

I was just pointing out that it is improper to speak of proving a theory. Theories are confirmed or validated, not proven. It would be improper to speak of the theory of relativity being proven since it a set of general principles.

Gödel's theorems are the part of a theory (or several theories). So, if no theory can be proven, then Gödel's theorems are not proven. Capisce?
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23-10-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 05:00 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Nevertheless, some theories can be proven completely?

Relatively little is "proven completely" but it isn't necessary to "prove completely" to make something believable. There just needs to be sufficient evidence to make the accepted explanation reasonable to accept as true. Rational belief includes the provision that new evidence could require the belief to be modified or even replaced.

I'm not asking you to "prove completely" that your god exists. At this point I'm not even asking for compelling evidence. I'm looking for any evidence at all that points to a god as the best explanation for ANYTHING. Arguments from ignorance and incredulity can be left at the door as they are not evidence. Got anything else?

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23-10-2016, 11:03 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 09:35 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  .....................
A: "If God exists, then he cannot know that this sentence is true."
.................
If God does exist and believes A to be true, ......

The sentence, which does not make sense is not true and not false. Because it is nonsense. Correct?

Therefore, you should start to write so:

If the Holy Trinity exists, then He cannot think, that "1=2".
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23-10-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 10:49 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 08:21 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just pointing out that it is improper to speak of proving a theory. Theories are confirmed or validated, not proven. It would be improper to speak of the theory of relativity being proven since it a set of general principles.

Gödel's theorems are the part of a theory (or several theories). So, if no theory can be proven, then Gödel's theorems are not proven. Capisce?

Yes of course but you seem to be operating under the mistaken assumption that either something is proven or it is believed on faith. This is a common mistake and I think it stems from not having any kind of coherent theory of knowledge. It's common for theist to trot this out and make fools of themselves. Proof is just one species of validation. Deduction is not the only form of reason. Sometimes it is not necessary, especially when we can just point directly to the facts. Many truths are validated merely by sense perception. Here is where you're going to ask me to prove that the senses are valid, I can just feel it coming.

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23-10-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 10:49 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 08:21 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just pointing out that it is improper to speak of proving a theory. Theories are confirmed or validated, not proven. It would be improper to speak of the theory of relativity being proven since it a set of general principles.

Gödel's theorems are the part of a theory (or several theories). So, if no theory can be proven, then Gödel's theorems are not proven. Capisce?

Mathematics is not science. It's a logical tool utilized by science, but it is not subject to empirical review the way science is. Scientific theorems are never proven, but logical and mathematical theorems are.
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23-10-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 10:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  .......... Arguments from ignorance and incredulity can be left at the door as they are not evidence. Got anything else?

The secular science can not yet trace all the history from nothingness (absence of space-time prior to Seeming Big Bang) to the President Putin. So, the True God of the gaps is still necessary (the True God is "not completely killed" yet by the secularism), to make us whole and holy. Correct?


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23-10-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 12:42 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 12:30 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ......... You forgot a couple of words which are pretty important to it.

I'd like not to be confused. I am not a book-worm. I am like the eagle, I see the picture above:



No, if you're claiming to restate the theorem, you should actually understand it first. Your education is your own responsibility, not mine.

Go reread it, and figure out what words you missed that make a big difference.
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23-10-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 11:14 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 10:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  .......... Arguments from ignorance and incredulity can be left at the door as they are not evidence. Got anything else?

The secular science can not yet trace all the history from nothingness (absence of space-time prior to Seeming Big Bang) to the President Putin. So, the True God of the gaps is still necessary (the True God is "not completely killed" yet by the secularism), to make us whole and holy. Correct?

No, very much not correct. Why, after quoting that arguments from ignorance are not evidence, do you trot out an argument from ignorance? We do not know what caused the big bang or even if it had a cause. That doesn't make "magic man" the answer. It makes "we do not know" the answer.

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23-10-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 11:08 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  .......... to empirical review the way science is. Scientific theorems are never proven, .........

The theorems in Physics are proven, if their source is true and the derivation is correct. Hereby the theorems of the Physics may not coincide with the empirical observations.
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23-10-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Gödel theorems. Blind faith is scientific, isn't it?
(23-10-2016 10:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 09:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More spam from Borg. Ban this fucking ignorant presuppositional troll.

I don't think he has done anything particularly ban-worthy. Even his posts, while they frequently repeat similar themes, are ostensibly different topics and are not so many that they are spam.

And sadly, being boastfully ignorant is not a crime, even at TTA.

I would say that being boring troll with no clue is ban-worthy but obviously I'm not one who wield banhammer.



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