GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
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27-08-2015, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2015 10:02 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(27-08-2015 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point is that the idea of a loving god is simply unsupportable.
No reasonable case can be made for it.

Your point seems to be that ascribing loving to the God character of bible is unsupportable, but malevolent, unpleasant, etc.. is not. A pointed extend by my line of questions to apply to a hypothetical God of this world as well, in which "malevolent" was ascribed again by you. In your view both Gods cannot be deemed loving, not because they don't exist, but the condition of the world, the stories of Bible suggest a God that's not loving at all.

All of these question revolve around one word "love", and reveals more about each individuals perception of what it means to be loved than anything else. The conception of love can contain a variety of differences, depending on sentiments of each individual person, whether they find themselves better attuned to the sentiments of liberal western culture or not.

For such individuals it appears that a loving God, is one that would of created a world that resembled a playground, under his meticulous supervision, with no scrapes or bruises, or predators in the background lurking. One that maximizes the ethos of utilitarian moral ethics, maximizes pleasure. And certainly not one that would have created a tragic world like our own, filled with agony and joy, with suffering and happiness, with hope and failure, with chaos and order.
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27-08-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(27-08-2015 09:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  My point is that the idea of a loving god is simply unsupportable.
No reasonable case can be made for it.

Your point seems to be that ascribing loving to the God character of bible is unsupportable, but malevolent, unpleasant, etc.. is not.

Just look at God's behavior in the Bible: that is the evidence that supports the claim that God is not loving.

Quote:A pointed extend by my line of questions to apply to a hypothetical God of this world as well, in which "malevolent" was ascribed again by you.

The way the world operates is the evidence that there is no loving god.

Quote:In your view both Gods cannot be deemed loving, not because they don't exist, but the condition of the world, the stories of Bible suggest a God that's not loving at all.

I claim that the God portrayed in the Bible is not loving.
I claim that the conditions of the world are strong evidence that a loving god does not exist.
Your hypothetical god, were it to exist, would be either malevolent or indifferent. But since there is no evidence of any gods, it's moot.

Quote:All of these question revolve around one word "love", and reveals more about each individuals perception of what it means to be loved than anything else. The conception of love can contain a variety of differences, depending on sentiments of each individual person, whether they find themselves better attuned to the sentiments of liberal western culture or not.

They do? I have not mentioned love at all. No

Quote:For such individuals it appears that a loving God, is one that would of created a world that resembled a playground, under his meticulous supervision, with no scrapes or bruises, or predators in the background lurking. One that maximizes the ethos of utilitarian moral ethics, maximizes pleasure.

I made no such claim. No

Quote:And certainly not one that would have created a tragic world like our own, filled with agony and joy, with suffering and happiness, with hope and failure, with chaos and order.

That's pretty much my claim.


While all of that is interesting and clarifying, you offer no case for a loving god.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2015, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2015 02:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(27-08-2015 04:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-08-2015 07:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  An indifferent or malevolent creator would create a world that included:
Earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, spinabifida, Down syndrome,
cystic fibrosis, Huntington's disease, sickle cell anemia, hemophilia, malaria, diabetes, septicemia,
rabies, anthrax, Ebola, smallpox, polio, bubonic plague, tularemia, Dengue fever, leishmaniasis,
brucellosis, hepatitis, AIDS, mosquitoes, infectious bacteria and viruses, ...

Let's see - do you know of a world like that? Consider

Would it be malevolent or indifferent?

I vote for dead. It makes me feel better than the truth that he ran away when he saw what a fuckup he made. "You're on your own fatboy." Still brings tears to my eyes. Weeping

#sigh
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29-08-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(27-08-2015 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 09:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  All of these question revolve around one word "love", and reveals more about each individuals perception of what it means to be loved than anything else. The conception of love can contain a variety of differences, depending on sentiments of each individual person, whether they find themselves better attuned to the sentiments of liberal western culture or not.

They do? I have not mentioned love at all. No

Except of course when you suggest that our world would negates the existence of a God of Love, and that the God of the bible is not a loving one.

While you've only suggested what it means to not be loving, but it order to say this, it would require that you have sort of conception of what it means to be loving? What it would mean for God to be a God of love, like a God of love wouldn't allowing suffering to exist, for children to starve to death, for the tragedy and violence of our world.

Quote:
Quote:For such individuals it appears that a loving God, is one that would of created a world that resembled a playground, under his meticulous supervision, with no scrapes or bruises, or predators in the background lurking. One that maximizes the ethos of utilitarian moral ethics, maximizes pleasure.

I made no such claim. No

Than what sort of world if it's not like our own, would a loving God of created then?

Quote:While all of that is interesting and clarifying, you offer no case for a loving god.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to make a case for that. Because there is no single topic harder to talk about, especially with some random stranger on the internet than what it means to love. That's a conversation in which the doors are always closed. You can't remove yourself from the question in the way we can when discussing physics, because whatever we say of love, is derived by our own sense of love--the love that we've afforded others, and the love that's been provided by them or lack there of. When we conceive love as it truly exists among humanity it's a broken picture, so where do even begin to discuss what it means for it to be whole?

For me there's only one image of a love that's whole and perfected, in the life of that lunatic who got strung up by the Roman's. Yet love might have an entirely different image for you, and I don't know what that would be.
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29-08-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(29-08-2015 05:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  They do? I have not mentioned love at all. No

Except of course when you suggest that our world would negates the existence of a God of Love, and that the God of the bible is not a loving one.

There is no definition of love that would apply to the God of the Old Testament, hence that god is not a loving god.

Quote:While you've only suggested what it means to not be loving, but it order to say this, it would require that you have sort of conception of what it means to be loving? What it would mean for God to be a God of love, like a God of love wouldn't allowing suffering to exist, for children to starve to death, for the tragedy and violence of our world.

My conception of love is congruent with the generally understood concept.

Quote:
Quote:I made no such claim. No

Than what sort of world if it's not like our own, would a loving God of created then?

Not this one. I listed a great many attributes of this world that are inconsistent with a world that could have conceivably been created by a loving god.

Quote:
Quote:While all of that is interesting and clarifying, you offer no case for a loving god.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to make a case for that. Because there is no single topic harder to talk about, especially with some random stranger on the internet than what it means to love. That's a conversation in which the doors are always closed. You can't remove yourself from the question in the way we can when discussing physics, because whatever we say of love, is derived by our own sense of love--the love that we've afforded others, and the love that's been provided by them or lack there of. When we conceive love as it truly exists among humanity it's a broken picture, so where do even begin to discuss what it means for it to be whole?

A broken picture? No, it's a varied and complex picture.

Quote:For me there's only one image of a love that's whole and perfected, in the life of that lunatic who got strung up by the Roman's. Yet love might have an entirely different image for you, and I don't know what that would be.

Have you read the Bible? Consider
The lunatic described in the New Testament does not display perfect love. Look at how he treats his own mother, or tells people to abandon their families.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(29-08-2015 08:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  A broken picture? No, it's a varied and complex picture.

It’s a broken picture. It may be a complex and varied one, but it’s broken picture nonetheless. Human life is one marred by that endless stream of lynched victims, father’s who have abandoned their children, mother’s who have not loved them accordingly, histories of resentments that keep us estranged, those phone calls we never make, those orphans and widows we abandon. A man can more honestly speak of his failure to love, than his success.

Quote:My conception of love is congruent with the generally understood concept.

What’s the generally understood concept of someone who embodies love? Do you see yourself as a model of a loving person? When it comes to love we seem entirely lost, unable to conceive it as any more than some vague hint.

For two billion people the ideal sense of love is embodied by Jesus, so whatever you mean by generally understand, is not that. Is there a single person you can think of, who embodies the sort of love we should all aspire ourselves to obtain? Do you know what such a person would look like, as opposed to not look like?

Quote:The lunatic described in the New Testament does not display perfect love. Look at how he treats his own mother, or tells people to abandon their families.

I know, he hated his mother. He would have rolled over in his grave (if he was still there), to find out she’s become a revered figure among his believers.
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29-08-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(29-08-2015 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 08:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  A broken picture? No, it's a varied and complex picture.

It’s a broken picture. It may be a complex and varied one, but it’s broken picture nonetheless. Human life is one marred by that endless stream of lynched victims, father’s who have abandoned their children, mother’s who have not loved them accordingly, histories of resentments that keep us estranged, those phone calls we never make, those orphans and widows we abandon. A man can more honestly speak of his failure to love, than his success.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. Love itself is varied and complex; there is no one thing that is 'love', there are many kinds of love.
To speak of 'perfect love' is incoherent.

Quote:
Quote:My conception of love is congruent with the generally understood concept.

What’s the generally understood concept of someone who embodies love?

Where did I say "someone who embodies love"? I didn't.
It is people's understanding of love, not there practice.

Quote:Do you see yourself as a model of a loving person?

Did I even hint that I did? I didn't.

Quote:When it comes to love we seem entirely lost, unable to conceive it as any more than some vague hint.

"We"? You got a mouse in your pocket? Consider

I see many people who demonstrate a pretty good practice of loving attitude and behavior.

Quote:For two billion people the ideal sense of love is embodied by Jesus, so whatever you mean by generally understand, is not that.

No, it is definitely not that because they would be wrong.

Quote:Is there a single person you can think of, who embodies the sort of love we should all aspire ourselves to obtain?

There is no one kind of love to which we should all aspire.

Quote:Do you know what such a person would look like, as opposed to not look like?

See above.

Quote:
Quote:The lunatic described in the New Testament does not display perfect love. Look at how he treats his own mother, or tells people to abandon their families.

I know, he hated his mother. He would have rolled over in his grave (if he was still there), to find out she’s become a revered figure among his believers.

If he ever actually existed to have a grave.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2015, 09:32 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 09:36 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(29-08-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. Love itself is varied and complex; there is no one thing that is 'love', there are many kinds of love.

Sure, there are all kinds of love, like eros (sexual love), etc.. When we speak of God love for man, or the sort of love one aspires to have for one another, we’re speaking of one sort of love. And not the sort of love that I have for chocolate.

And when it comes to that human space, a great deal of the complexity comes from the fact that love is just one competing thing among many competing things. It has to compete with our greed, our hatred, indifference, selfishness, frugality, cynicism, isolation, resentments, etc….

Quote:To speak of 'perfect love' is incoherent.

So we can’t attribute “perfect love” not just to a God of this world, but any world whatsoever, even one devoid of suffering and pain? Because the “perfect love” is incoherent. It cannot be attributed to any person, or God?

Can we attribute imperfect love to people? Can I say my father’s love for his children was imperfect? Would that also be incoherent to you?

Quote:Did I even hint that I did? I didn’t

No. I was just asking. And I didn’t think you’d answer yes, anymore so than I would.

(29-08-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  
Quote:For two billion people the ideal sense of love is embodied by Jesus, so whatever you mean by generally understand, is not that.

No, it is definitely not that because they would be wrong.

How so? How would I be wrong to believe that the love Jesus embodies, is an ideal? That if there is someone who embodies an ideal, it’s him?

And when you say I’m wrong here, are you expressing an opinion, or a fact?

Quote:
Quote:Is there a single person you can think of, who embodies the sort of love we should all aspire ourselves to obtain?

There is no one kind of love to which we should all aspire.

Is there a single person that represents for you (not everyone) the sort of love you should aspire to obtain? Or are you, your own ideal?
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29-08-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
(29-08-2015 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s a broken picture. It may be a complex and varied one, but it’s broken picture nonetheless. Human life is one marred by that endless stream of lynched victims, father’s who have abandoned their children, mother’s who have not loved them accordingly, histories of resentments that keep us estranged, those phone calls we never make, those orphans and widows we abandon. A man can more honestly speak of his failure to love, than his success.

As Chas said, the idea of "perfect love" is borderline nonsensical. And you're completely misstating why we think the God of the Bible is a megalomaniacal psychopath.

Spend about 15 minutes on the Evil Bible Homepage or the Skeptic's Annotated Bible for a few dozen examples of the genocidal, misogynistic, slavery-endorsing, homophobic, and child-abusing psychopathy demanded by your God that would be intolerable to any modern understanding of the concept of individual human worth and dignity.

Spend about 15 minutes on the Council for Secular Humanism website to see a counter-narrative from our side, including articles on the basis of our moral concepts and (general, since atheists are as diverse as religionists) beliefs. Not all atheists are Secular Humanists, of course, but we fall somewhere along a spectrum centered there, with a few exceptions.

And yet, here you are, trying to lecture us about the concept of love.

Do humans often do terrible things to one another? Sure. But we also do amazing things for one another. We are a social animal, and so what we believe about society and what people are included in that society matters.

Skeptics/secularists acknowledge that humans are little more than intelligent chimpanzees, with many animal instincts layered-over by millions of years of tribal xenophobia, and that we have to work to make ourselves and our society better, because we're the only ones who can. Hell or heaven is on earth, and we make it so.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-08-2015, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 11:27 AM by Anjele.)
RE: GOD IS LOVING AND MERCIFUL
How can someone be described as loving when they cause pain and suffering (and in the case of a god, the threat of eternal damnation) and the only relief from that pain is through them?

This is commonly known as an abusive relationship.

- It's your fault that I hurt you.

- It is only through me you will get relief.

- If you turn to anyone else for help, I will cause more hurt.

- You are nothing without me.

edited to add - No one will love you like I do.

God is an abusive bully with a shit ton of co-dependent followers.

Later we can talk about Stockholm syndrome.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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