GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
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09-05-2017, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 12:36 PM by Brian37.)
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 12:06 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  "We're doing it, cuz they did it to us" sounds like an excuse to match atrocities with a wartime enemy. Undecided

I'm not commenting on the OP, cuz my lunch is about over and I ain't got time to read that shit Tongue but IF they're lying about what's in the bill to rile the emotions of voters...

I don't watch Real Time w/ Bill Maher, much anymore, due to his ridiculous comments about Trump. Gonna become Hitler, brown shirts will be roaming the streets, women will be forbidden from working outside the home, blacks will be made slaves again, blah blah blah. Bullshit.

The verbiage may be refined a great deal, but it still stunk of the same bullshit as when my neighbor claimed Barack Saddam Bin Laden Obama was gonna come take all our guns, and sell our babies to Saudi Arabia! Dodgy

It has the potential to undermine Democratic credibility in the eyes of Republican voters as much as it undermined Republican's credibility for Democratic voters. "Look at all the crap they said was gonna happen that didn't! They don't know nuthin. Shoot, they'z prolly lyin! Let's go vote for 'nother Republican." *spittoon clang*

I'd be happy to keep the false bullshit spewing from Republican mouths, only. Undecided

Bull fucking shit. nobody is arguing Trump can become Hitler, I think you are taking Bill's humor out of context.

Trump's sell of hyper nationalism, populism based on fear of the other, and blaming everyone else is what got him the win. Trump did not just attack Obama by being the asshole opportunist taking off with what that crazy right wing women did with the birther movement. No, he didn't stop with that lie. He went on to attack Hillary too, but no, he didn't stop there, he even vilified his rivals in the primaries, burned down his own camp. He attacked the service of McCain. He attacked INTEL despite 17 agencies agreeing that Russia WAS interfering. He vilified judges and media too.

And those are ALSO the very same political tactics Hitler used.

No, Trump cannot become Hitler, I agree, but his political tactics are the same and if more politicians take that playbook, it can erode our system long term.

I am not saying that will happen, I am saying that is a possible outcome if that political demagoguery increases and is used by more and more politicians.

You fail to realize, that Germany after WW1 was STILL a western democracy. Hitler when he first started getting noticed at that time, again Germany was STILL a western democracy. His rise to power didn't happen suddenly, the collapse of Germany's system into a one party dictatorship took almost a decade.

Trump cannot do that as long as our society cares enough to keep him in check. If we don't care, and we allow his toxic political demagoguery that most certainly could happen, nobody is claiming it has to happen.

Lots of Germans thought the way you did until it was too late.

No it does not have to happen, that is the only part I would say could stop him. But the political tactics of carpet attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with you and carpet bombing multiple groups and selling hyper nationalism is what can potentially set the stage for bad things to happen in the future.

I really think you should talk to Jews old enough who lived it about their attitude of thinking "that will never happen".

And FYI, last year, while my mom was still alive, she had a 90 year old Polish Jew who escaped Nazi Germany as her room mate. I asked her what she thought of Trump, without hesitation she frowned and grimaced and said "I think he is a bad person".

I think that lady knows what the fuck political demagoguery gets a society.

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09-05-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
@Brian37

After WW I and collapse of Kaiser state Germany was kinda democratic, sure, but heart of citizens beat to different rhytm. Weimar Republic was disliked from the start.

Also change was quite sudden, things weren't good in German state prior to Hitler becoming Chancellor, but after it all went down quickly.

I reccomend checking Richard Evans trilogy about III Reich.


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09-05-2017, 12:49 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
Even with our open system since the founders that came with oppression. Slavery was around after the signing of the constitution, women could not vote even after the signing of the constitution, we invaded the entire continent and stole it Native Americans, LGBT had no rights back then, interracial marriage was not legal back then, and during WW2 we wrongfully stole property from legal Japanese citizens and put them in prison camps.

So when you say Trump isn't cant do anything wrong, that misses the point of the totality of what human politics can lead to. His tone is politically toxic, not his individual ability to suddenly take power.

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09-05-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 12:06 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  "We're doing it, cuz they did it to us" sounds like an excuse to match atrocities with a wartime enemy. Undecided
I don't watch Real Time w/ Bill Maher, much anymore, due to his ridiculous comments about Trump. Gonna become Hitler, brown shirts will be roaming the streets, women will be forbidden from working outside the home, blacks will be made slaves again, blah blah blah. Bullshit.

I watch Real Time all the time, and I have never seen him say any of these, or anything remotely approaching any of these. Can you provide citations for any of these? These seem like straw men.
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09-05-2017, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 03:37 PM by epronovost.)
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
According to the Snope article linked by Unfogged, I think it proves that the idea that Rape is could be a pre-existing conditions that could lead to major increase on the price of insurrence or be denied insurrence is a slight exageration (I don't think I would call it a lie). Symptoms related to rape and other form of abuse, like chronic depression, STDs, PTSD, etc. could be considered pre-existing conditions making this entire debate a distinction without much of a difference. Considering that this situation happenned according to some sources before the ACA was put in place, its reasonnable to think it will happen again. If you are suffering from those conditions you might get fucked (again, in the case of a rape victim). If you are a rape victim who doesn't suffer from those conditions, you will be fine.

Personnaly, what I hate the most with this sort of system is that those who need the most affordable healthcare (people who have important health issues) are those who have the most trouble getting it. People with important health issues rarely have access to important revenues and savings. What's the point of a healthCARE system like that? Its like making obstacles to weapon productions and military enlistment that can only take effect during wartime.

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09-05-2017, 04:03 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
As far back as 1999 (that I recall, anyway), insurance companies have been trying to systematically deny people healthcare for previously existing conditions.

Quote:A 2009 Huffington Post report found evidence that rape victims were, indeed, being denied coverage in the wake of their assault:

A 38-year-old woman in Ithaca, N.Y., said she was raped last year and then penalized by insurers because in giving her medical history she mentioned an assault she suffered in college 17 years earlier. The woman, Kimberly Fallon, told a nurse about the previous attack and months later, her doctor’s office sent her a bill for treatment. She said she was informed by a nurse and, later, the hospital’s billing department that her health insurance company, Blue Cross Blue Shield, not only had declined payment for the rape exam, but also would not pay for therapy or medication for trauma because she “had been raped before.”

Fallon says she now has trouble getting coverage for gynecological exams. To avoid the hassle of fighting with her insurance company, she goes to Planned Parenthood instead and pays out of pocket.
At the time, a different AHIP spokesperson said that insurers ordinarily would not know if an applicant had been sexually assaulted, but that if someone developed post-traumatic stress disorder in the wake of an attack, it “could be a factor” in their being denied coverage.

So yea, as far as I'm aware, this is not news. Drinking Beverage

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09-05-2017, 04:47 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Bull fucking shit. nobody is arguing Trump can become Hitler, I think you are taking Bill's humor out of context.

Bill Maher was not trying to be funny. I can't find the specific show, but it aired before Trump got elected, when Trump was ahead in the polls, and he was pleading with voters to get out and vote against him, or "this this this & that" bad things were going to happen. None of it did, and when people known to back Democrats and liberals lie alongside the enemy, their cry of wolf is just as loud as Republicans to people who it would be nice to sway to the Democrats' side.

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Trump's sell of hyper nationalism, populism based on fear of the other, and blaming everyone else is what got him the win. Trump did not just attack Obama by being the asshole opportunist taking off with what that crazy right wing women did with the birther movement. No, he didn't stop with that lie. He went on to attack Hillary too, but no, he didn't stop there, he even vilified his rivals in the primaries, burned down his own camp. He attacked the service of McCain. He attacked INTEL despite 17 agencies agreeing that Russia WAS interfering. He vilified judges and media too.

Completely irrelevant, when all a less than informed voter is looking at, is which side "lies for Jesus Politics" less.

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  And those are ALSO the very same political tactics Hitler used.

Anyone who can read, or stare at pictures taken at Auschwitz, can see that he's not Hitler. Not even close. Keep trying to sell him as that bad, and any future points you might have to make against the next retarded orangutan of a candidate may be dismissed before they're ever even voiced... cuz everyone will be expecting you to "lie for Hilary Dems", again.

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  No, Trump cannot become Hitler, I agree, but his political tactics are the same and if more politicians take that playbook, it can erode our system long term.

Democrats stooping to Republican levels of obviously ridiculous bullshittery wouldn't?

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Trump cannot do that as long as our society cares enough to keep him in check. If we don't care, and we allow his toxic political demagoguery that most certainly could happen, nobody is claiming it has to happen.

Lots of Germans thought the way you did until it was too late.

If we don't care about politicians from either side saying whatever lie gets them votes, the Hitler you fear could always come from the other side. I'm sure many Germans thought the way you did; that ANYTHING would be better than President Paul von Hindenburg Donald Trump... it can always be worse! Confused

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  But the political tactics of carpet attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with you and carpet bombing multiple groups and selling hyper nationalism is what can potentially set the stage for bad things to happen in the future.

Can you imagine how someone, like myself, who hates Trump, and wishes more people would vote for Democrats and progressives, would feel when expressing how they wish Democrats wouldn't stoop to Republicans low level, gets attacked by a Democrat who doesn't agree with me? Think reeeeeeal hard, Brian. This may be something that... idk... might cause an otherwise on-the-fence voter to stay where he doesn't get shat on for an opposing opinion...
Huh... Consider crazy talk Rolleyes

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  I really think you should talk to Jews old enough who lived it about their attitude of thinking "that will never happen".

Yeah? Ask them how popular Hitler was at his worst approval rating, and compare it to Trump's, right now. You can ask them if Donald Trump is as bad as Hitler, while you're at it. I bet the answer they give is a big HELLNO!

(09-05-2017 12:29 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  And FYI, last year, while my mom was still alive, she had a 90 year old Polish Jew who escaped Nazi Germany as her room mate. I asked her what she thought of Trump, without hesitation she frowned and grimaced and said "I think he is a bad person".

I think that lady knows what the fuck political demagoguery gets a society.

My 90 year old great grandma couldn't remember some of her own kid's names. Tongue

..............................

Brian... have I ever said anything inappropriate to you? Called you names? Ever said anything about being "against" Jews, or something? Any reason, at all, for you to get all bent out of shape over my expressing the opinion that Democrats who lie like Republicans are just as full of shit? My only wish is for there to be nothing for Repubs, and their voters, to stand on when making lists of things to vote against. If the Dems never spew bullshit...

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09-05-2017, 04:57 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 01:19 PM)John Derderian Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 12:06 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  "We're doing it, cuz they did it to us" sounds like an excuse to match atrocities with a wartime enemy. Undecided
I don't watch Real Time w/ Bill Maher, much anymore, due to his ridiculous comments about Trump. Gonna become Hitler, brown shirts will be roaming the streets, women will be forbidden from working outside the home, blacks will be made slaves again, blah blah blah. Bullshit.

I watch Real Time all the time, and I have never seen him say any of these, or anything remotely approaching any of these. Can you provide citations for any of these? These seem like straw men.

No, I cannot produce that show. But it was on air during the elction night when I think some people could still vote, but other states were done. It's a real show, and can be looked up, and I remember roughly the time of year.

No straw man... not even an argument that Bill said some thangs. Simple observation. I'm only speculating that he's not the only human in the U.S. to make false claims about Republican bills, or President Douche.

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10-05-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 03:33 PM)epronovost Wrote:  According to the Snope article linked by Unfogged, I think it proves that the idea that Rape is could be a pre-existing conditions that could lead to major increase on the price of insurrence or be denied insurrence is a slight exageration (I don't think I would call it a lie). Symptoms related to rape and other form of abuse, like chronic depression, STDs, PTSD, etc. could be considered pre-existing conditions making this entire debate a distinction without much of a difference. Considering that this situation happenned according to some sources before the ACA was put in place, its reasonnable to think it will happen again. If you are suffering from those conditions you might get fucked (again, in the case of a rape victim). If you are a rape victim who doesn't suffer from those conditions, you will be fine.

Personnaly, what I hate the most with this sort of system is that those who need the most affordable healthcare (people who have important health issues) are those who have the most trouble getting it. People with important health issues rarely have access to important revenues and savings. What's the point of a healthCARE system like that? Its like making obstacles to weapon productions and military enlistment that can only take effect during wartime.

Thank you for a thoughtful/reasoned reply. I mostly agree with you. The reason I think the claim rises to the level of a full lie is that when rape is listed, among other items listed in complaints about the law, a very false impression is left with the reader that rape is being singled out (along with other womens' health issues). As I pointed out in my OP, a much better criticism would be precisely the criticism you raise--that pre-existing conditions are not fully addressed by the GOP legislation.

The GOP approach to pre-existing conditions is, as I argued in my OP, inadequate because it does not deal with the issue of people who do not have insurance because they could not afford it. It would seem that allowing insurance companies to charge a premium for people who went without coverage BY CHOICE would get at the problem of problem of people not getting coverage when they could have.

But if someone did not have insurance because they could not afford the full rate product, charging 30% more makes it even worse if they do need healthcare.
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10-05-2017, 04:36 PM
RE: GOP Bill Makes Rape A Pre-existing Condition--And Other Lies By The Left
(09-05-2017 04:57 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 01:19 PM)John Derderian Wrote:  I watch Real Time all the time, and I have never seen him say any of these, or anything remotely approaching any of these. Can you provide citations for any of these? These seem like straw men.

No, I cannot produce that show. But it was on air during the elction night when I think some people could still vote, but other states were done. It's a real show, and can be looked up, and I remember roughly the time of year.
No citation, then. I watched the election night show, and he did not say any of these things.

(09-05-2017 04:57 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  No straw man... not even an argument that Bill said some thangs. Simple observation.

False. You stated that Maher said the following:
Quote:I don't watch Real Time w/ Bill Maher, much anymore, due to his ridiculous comments about Trump. Gonna become Hitler, brown shirts will be roaming the streets, women will be forbidden from working outside the home, blacks will be made slaves again, blah blah blah. Bullshit.
These are absurd exaggerations, things Maher has never said on the show, either joking or seriously. These are indeed three great big straw men. Your doubling down on your claim, calling them "not even argument, simple observation," does not make them any less false.
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