Gaddafi's Dead!!!
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21-10-2011, 08:36 AM
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
DeepThought wrote:
Quote:I'm in 2 minds about it and I think that is ok. I'm glad he's gone and at the same time i'm disturbed by human nature.

"2 minds." - I know this and I've seen it.
I've seen one animal kill another animal and when the frenzy of the actual kill is over, the look that comes over the killer's face is very distinctive. I've seen it repeated several times and in a variety of animals; it is a precisely confused appearance. The killing animal visibly staggers around their kill, trying to dissipate excess adrenaline. They will even sit and just stare for a few moments, waiting for their body to calm down. As this lull in activity takes place, the confused look fades and the tension in their body lessens considerably. It's as if they've become an entirely different animal; a more familiar animal, more comfortable in their own skin. Only after this period of coming down do they decide what to do next.
It's fascinating to watch.

It is disturbing to see news images of seemingly average people joyously celebrating the death of another human being, no matter how horrible that human being may have been. We justify their momentary madness by agreeing that they suffered at the hands of the one whose death they now cheer. We instantly identify, but our distance also gives us perspective. As an observer we have the advantage they do not have. With this physical and emotional distance, we are able to be closer to our rational mind.
As humans evolve, we retain many traits we no longer need… appendix, excess body hair, toenails, etc.,. I often wonder if that part of our mind which disturbs us, is also one of those unnecessary traits. And if it is… I then wonder why we continue to exercise it.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-10-2011, 08:52 AM
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
What about average people who have suffered at the hands of the other human being? What about people who have had family and friends murdered by him? Can they celebrate without being considered animals?

As for him just being a "name", yes he is just another name in history, one of many tyrants who have lived and not worthy of even mentioning. I prefer to think of other names, including:
Steven Russell Berrell
Stephen John Boland
Nicole Elise Boulanger
Timothy Michael Cardwell
Theodora Eugenia Cohen
Gary Leonard Colasanti
Jason Coker
Scott Marsh Cory
Shannon Davis
Turhan Michael Ergin
Karen Lee Hunt
Christopher Andrew Jones
Julianne Frances Kelly
Wendy Anne Lincoln
Alexander Lowenstein
Suzanne Marie Miazga
Richard Paul Monetti
Peter Raymond Peirce
Frederick Sandford Phillips
Amy Elizabeth Shapiro
Cynthia Joan Smith
Alexia Kathryn Tsairis
Nicholas Andreas Vrenios
Kesha Weedon
Miriam Luby Wolfe

My guess is none of you know these people and you never will. They are the 35 Syracuse University "study-abroad" students who died when Libyan intelligence blew up Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. And, while they represent only a small number of his victims, I think their total innocence of anything having to do with international affairs really highlights the brutality of that bastard. I didn't know any of these people but I was in college when that happened. These people were my age, living a very similar life to mine, and it could just as easily been me, or my friend, or my cousin, or my sister.

I'm not dancing in the streets because Gaddaffi's dead. I'm not celebrating it in anyway, but I won't deny I'm glad the son of a bitch is gone. I heard a news report earlier that indicated he may have been scared and begging for his life when he was "accidentally" shot in the head. I'll confess to saying that I'm not at all upset with that image either.

Sometimes people get exactly what they deserve. We don't have to celebrate it from the safety of 5,000 miles away but I'm certainly not going to judge people who were victimized by him for 40 years if they chose to do so.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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21-10-2011, 09:22 AM
 
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
(21-10-2011 08:52 AM)BnW Wrote:  As for him just being a "name", yes he is just another name in history, one of many tyrants who have lived and not worthy of even mentioning.

One question: Any part of your information comes from personal, first-hand experience, or you rely on the media to tell you what you should consider true? Huh

For example, do you know, for a fact, that Gaddafi was personally responsible for the death of those people you listed?

If you say 'yes', please explain what you mean by 'fact' and how you acquired it beyond any reasonable doubt, in view of how many times, in how many ways, we have been lied to?
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21-10-2011, 09:39 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2011 09:43 AM by BnW.)
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
If you're asking if I watched him give the order to do it, of course I did not. But, the fact that he took responsibility and one of his former ministers said that Gaddafi personally gave the order is good enough for me. You're free to believe otherwise, or to convene a panel of scientists who don't care about the outcome of the question but I'm personally satisfied that he a) was a monster who most recently proved that by dropping bombs on his own civilian population and b) got what he deserved.

Btw, I find it hilarious that you use OJ's acquittal as proof that the justice system doesn't work but then question whether nor not Gaddafi is a murderer.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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21-10-2011, 09:49 AM
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
(20-10-2011 05:23 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Zatamon, bemore, you sum up perfectly how I felt when I saw the news report.

I also feel that it sums up our planet that those actions have been portrayed as positive.


Tazmin, I wouldn't hold up much hope of Mugabe being brought to justice. Not unless there's a sudden discovery of some very valuable natural resource in Zimbabwe and he refuses to negotiate preferable terms with British and American companies.

I kinda felt sad for him because of the picture that was released..*shudder*

He going to die in 2 or 3 years. I heard Richard Branson offered 5.6 million pounds to Mugabe if he step down form power... 5.6 MILLION POUNDS!!!! *facepalm*

[Image: boston-terrier-gets-scared.gif]
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21-10-2011, 09:52 AM
 
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
(21-10-2011 09:39 AM)BnW Wrote:  If you're asking if I watched him give the order to do it, of course I did not. But, the fact that he took responsibility ...

I have heard some rumors that he wanted to be in with the Americans again, and taking responsibility for the bombing was a price negotiated in the deal. A rumor, of course...Big Grin

Quote:Btw, I find it hilarious that you use OJ's acquittal as proof that the justice system doesn't work but then question whether nor not Gaddafi is a murderer.

Answer to the part before the 'but' is: NO, I did not.

Answer to the part after the 'but' is: NO, I did not.

But you have to read my posts very carefully, ALL OF IT, ignoring nothing (rather than picking out bits and pieces you don't like), to be able to understand what I actually mean. Undecided

ETA: ...and I am now done with this exchange because past experience suggests that it is not leading to consensus in the foreseeable future. Smile
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21-10-2011, 09:54 AM
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
Make no mistake; I absolutely agree that Gaddafi was a tyrant and a criminal who should have been taken out of power and made to stand trial more than 30 years ago.
His victims have only been able to pray for relief and they and loved ones are left with only loss. It is as if no one has taken responsibility for their loss. Justice assigns responsibility. If this criminal were to have been tried and convicted to whatever sentence deemed appropriate, then his victims and their loved ones would have seen justice served. They would be able to reconcile the responsibility taken as rational and just.
I personally am not upset about the images, either. They are disturbing images but I've seen far more disturbing and I am usually, rather more fascinated than upset.

But back to my point, if there is one... the return to the rational mind where justice could prevail and be carried out would doubtlessly produce the same outcome.
However, Gaddafi is no longer available to take responsibility for his crimes.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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21-10-2011, 10:39 AM
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
Will all of the "accepted" tyrants of this world ever be brought to justice I wonder. The leaders of the western world who wage war on innocent people.....who control events with carefull precision.....who airstrike innocent men, women and children and call it "collateral damage" like these people didnt matter???

Qaddafi wasnt a saint no......yet when I look at the history of the leaders of my country I see blood on there hands that goes into tens of millions....much worse than the leader of libya.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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21-10-2011, 11:16 AM
 
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
(21-10-2011 09:39 AM)BnW Wrote:  But, the fact that he took responsibility and one of his former ministers said that Gaddafi personally gave the order is good enough for me.

I can't help myself but I have to make one more comment, because the quoted statement is so typical of what lawyers do.

Lawyers know about fake confessions (coerced and/or bribed), they know about fake accusations by third parties (often to save their own skin), yet they present these as evidence in support of their preconceived verdict (regardless of what they personally believe).

This is such a good example of what is wrong with the adversarial 'justice' system that I started another thread about.

We know nothing of the circumstances, the complexity of the cause-and-effect chains, the role of the oil companies now treading on each others' heals to secure juicy oil concessions, the pressure they exerted on the media to create the favorable public opinion, we only have glimpses of these once in a while.

Remember the first Gulf War when papa Bush kept repeating the lie over and over again how "they threw babies out of the incubators!" and later it turned out that Kuwait had no incubators and the whole lie was based on the testimony of the 'nurse' who turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US -- the whole 'testimony' stage managed by a very expensive US PR firm who were hired by the Kuwaitis to convince the US public?

This lie was the main 'proof' at the time that Saddam was a 'monster' ("worse than Hitler" -- in Papa Bush's words), justifying the war.

Of course I know this, too, from the media ("50 Minutes" program: "To Sell a War") and this, too, may have been a lie.

We are so surrounded with deceit, pretense, appearances and counter-appearances that no reasonable person can be sure of anything that they have no first-hand, personal experience for.

Was Gaddafi a criminal? It depends by whose law you judge crime. Bush junior and Blair are also considered criminals in many courts around the world, yet not too many are jumping up and down with hate and calling them monsters, deserving to be murdered and brutalized without giving us a chance to see the whole story.

Of course, many leaders can claim that they were forced to choose the least of the evils available to them (often true), but bushes are allowed to hide behind that excuse and gaddafis are not.

As usual: the victors write the history books, but we don't have to believe everything we hear or read.

And with this last rant, I am really outa here.
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21-10-2011, 02:47 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2011 03:08 PM by defacto7.)
RE: Gaddafi's Dead!!!
As I see it, this has nothing to do with Qaddafi's guilt or innocence. There is nothing I can possibly decide or judge outside of a simple personal opinion.

What is wrong here is the human reaction, the mass orgies of blood lust. The mistake people make is to see the man, then assume that because he had power that he IS the evil. The evil is in his doing. Once the doing is over, celebrate life and the future and forget the man. No... the human reaction is to do the same to him as he did to them... don't you just love that old bible teaching.. an eye for an eye?

To me, these people are celebrating religion and all the ugliness it has twisted into the culture of mankind. Animals kill to survive. Humans kill to to feel superior, to feel like they are right, to "get back at" to conquer. Where did man divert from simple survival to oppression?

Qaddafi was a man. His choices were brutal. He was in control because it was allowed.

The People who succeed him are humans. Are their choices brutal? Are they allowing this?

The dictator was dead months ago. The man was killed yesterday. Where is their lust for blood directed?

The most common reaction is one which stems from the worst that humanity has brought to this planet much of which comes from their myths and how they have seared their minds with them.

The higher goal for mankind would be to separate what is real from what is planted by the brutality of the myth.

Start celebrating being free, celebrate the future and what really exists, consigning the oppressors to oblivion... not acting with the same bleak mindset as their oppressors.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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