Gathering perspectives: knowledge
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11-04-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 07:53 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 07:37 PM)living thing Wrote:  Do you think there can be knowledge without understanding?

Nope.

All of the stuff in this post is just too deep for my brain, but I would love if you could explain this to me.
My 18 month old knows not to touch outlets but she doesn't understand why. She points at them and says no no no, but she doesn't understand what they could do she still knows not to touch.

I know the universe is 13.8 billions years old but I don't understand why that is true or how we know this.

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
Nathaniel Hawthorne
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11-04-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 10:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I know the universe is 13.8 billions years old but I don't understand why that is true or how we know this.

Because ultimately math is the only method in the observable universe that has never failed us.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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11-04-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 10:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  ...
I know the universe is 13.8 billions years old but I don't understand why that is true or how we know this.

I don't believe this data anymore.

Scientists have been saying this for years and it hasn't changed.

Angry

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11-04-2014, 11:15 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 10:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  All of the stuff in this post is just too deep for my brain, but I would love if you could explain this to me.
My 18 month old knows not to touch outlets but she doesn't understand why. She points at them and says no no no, but she doesn't understand what they could do she still knows not to touch.

And truthfully, we still don't know why we understand anything, we just know that we do so we try to the right thing. Or at least we should.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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11-04-2014, 11:16 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 11:15 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  All of the stuff in this post is just too deep for my brain, but I would love if you could explain this to me.
My 18 month old knows not to touch outlets but she doesn't understand why. She points at them and says no no no, but she doesn't understand what they could do she still knows not to touch.

And truthfully, we still don't know why we understand anything, we just know that we do so we try to the right thing. Or at least we should.

So you're saying that we actually have understanding without true knowledge?

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
Nathaniel Hawthorne
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11-04-2014, 11:17 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 10:57 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:21 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  ...
I know the universe is 13.8 billions years old but I don't understand why that is true or how we know this.

I don't believe this data anymore.

Scientists have been saying this for years and it hasn't changed.

Angry

I feel sense tonight so don't laugh at me for asking, but this is a joke right?

I have laughed, in bitterness and agony of heart, at the contrast between what I seem and what I am!
Nathaniel Hawthorne
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11-04-2014, 11:43 PM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 11:16 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  So you're saying that we actually have understanding without true knowledge?

As much as can. We can only rely on what we know, instinctually or cognitively. I'd say most of it is instinctual with a belated cognitive reaction two seconds too late. But with the cognitive ability to remember and correct for the future.

I dunno, I'm really just talking out of my ass here. It's friday, whaddyawant? Angel

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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12-04-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(11-04-2014 09:55 PM)living thing Wrote:  Hello DLJ, how are you?

Let me see if I have understood the progression correctly. Let us consider two discrete “facts” (not factual at all, because I am making them up): “Bob is 30 years old”, “Billy is 5 years old”. These would be data, right?

I'm ok, thanks for asking. And you?

I would classify those statements as 'information' as they are messages conveyed and understood.

Bob, Billy, 30 and 5 are data.

More information: I have attempted to make this post 3 times and together with my earlier post on this thread, these attempts have consumed 16% of my phone's battery capacity.
This is due to the authentication software hanging and timing out.
With this knowledge, I can make the decision to stop posting for a while.

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12-04-2014, 12:14 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
Knowledge is what we use to direct our reactions, but more important is that we use it to direct what we initiate. The first is what machines do, and they can be said to "know" what's needed to respond or react appropriately; the latter is still the exclusive province of sentient life, initiating, creating, imagining what could be and, as the Captain says, "make it so".

I regard knowledge as only half the cake. The whole cake is belief. Now I have to be careful with the word belief because it too often connotes supernatural or religious belief. Those are mere dimensions of belief. Belief itself much larger than that: belief is the engine of intelligence. Belief is what we use to free ourselves to live. Absent belief, we'd have to analyze every situation afresh. Belief stands proxy for analyses. We apprehend cues, and apply belief to respond. It's lightning fast. Without belief, our intelligence would weight us down and we'd never get anything done. Belief is vital.

Knowledge is only half the cake of belief; the other half is desire. We haven't got facts enough in many situations to make a truly proper analysis, so we fill in the gaps with what we imagine the missing facts are, and the facts we suppose are what we think most likely, or desire. Belief is thus a synthesis of knowledge and desire, not simply knowledge alone. Embedded in our subconscious, belief gives us instant response; were belief inhabited in our conscious minds, the distractions of conscious analysis would undercut its effectiveness.

We cannot consciously control belief; it is entirely an instrument of the subconscious. Try to believe that 2 + 2 = 5. You can't do it. Not immediately. With enough persuasion we could eventually alter belief to 2 + 2 = 5, but it has to percolate through conscious analysis first and such persuasion would take some time.

Once a belief is established, changing it is hard. Again, that's what makes belief effective. It's almost an instinct. If it could be changed easily it'd lose its point: instant interpretation of cues to direct response - or to gauge the success of an initiated endeavor.

We define ourselves not by what we know, but by what we believe. That makes it even harder to modify a belief - it requires a simultaneous adjustment to self image, and the risk that the new self image might wind up less attractive or inferior to the original. Since we can't consciously control what we believe, just acquiring new knowledge can seem threatening. We let desire crowd out knowledge, to keep a belief safe.

All of which is to say we may not know what we're doing, but we know what to do.
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12-04-2014, 12:14 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives: knowledge
(12-04-2014 12:00 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 09:55 PM)living thing Wrote:  Hello DLJ, how are you?

Let me see if I have understood the progression correctly. Let us consider two discrete “facts” (not factual at all, because I am making them up): “Bob is 30 years old”, “Billy is 5 years old”. These would be data, right?

I'm ok, thanks for asking. And you?

I would classify those statements as 'information' as they are messages conveyed and understood.

Bob, Billy, 30 and 5 are data.

More information: I have attempted to make this post 3 times and together with my earlier post on this thread, these attempts have consumed 16% of my phone's battery capacity.
This is due to the authentication software hanging and timing out.
With this knowledge, I can make the decision to stop posting for a while.

Asshole. Big Grin

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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