Gathering perspectives
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05-04-2014, 05:51 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
My dear friend, if I may use those words, I thank you for your recurring contributions to this thread, although I must admit that they are not helping me much in understanding your perspective. However, I appreciate how you seem to be trying to understand my view.

(04-04-2014 08:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, could it be said that a non-physical human concept occupies a virtual volume located at a virtual distance in a virtual direction from a virtual reference point?

Big Grin
I would have to know what you mean by "virtual". Using the word in the way I use it, I'd say no.

I hope this helps!
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05-04-2014, 05:54 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
(05-04-2014 05:27 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  "And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets."
Yes, but... I'm asking you for your own view, not for you to refer me to somebody else's view.

I do thank you for adding this piece of information, though.

Have fun.
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05-04-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
Sorry. I forgot all about this thread.

I am to define how I exist. Aside from typing these words, I do not know how I can.

Perhaps I do not exist and you are a mental patient dreaming me in a canoe???

Smile

I am not what I was 10 years ago and not what I will be in 10 years time. Am I flux??

Sorry I cannot help.

"I am an Australian and I have no manners!"
Lt Col Oswald Watt.
Royal Australian Flying Corps.
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05-04-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
Of course you've helped, Banjo, thank you very much.

(05-04-2014 06:28 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I am to define how I exist. Aside from typing these words, I do not know how I can.
Ok, so when you think of existence, it is at least partly related to your ability to type words, isn't it? Is that typing words in the sense of physically actuating on the keys, or is it more in the sense of being able to produce intangible entities that convey meanings?

If it is the first case, I think I can understand what you mean; one of the behaviours I have observed in the things that seem to exist, is that they are able to interact with one another; especially when their relative location is very close to each other. If it is the second case, I am not sure how I would apply the notion to things that I would say exist but do not seem able to produce words (stones and stuff). If it is neither case, then I would like to know what you mean, but I am aware that finding the most appropriate words that we will both understand can be difficult; I sincerely appreciate your attempt to express your view in a way I can understand.

(05-04-2014 06:28 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Perhaps I do not exist and you are a mental patient dreaming me in a canoe???
Perhaps, although in such case I'd be occupying some specific volume at some specific distance in some specific direction from the canoe; in my view, I would say I exist. Although I do not think that you do not exist, but I will not know that you do exist until I find out what specific volume you occupy, if any. Until then, you might simply be an ingenious computer program that sends sentences in English over a TCP/IP connection.

(05-04-2014 06:28 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I am not what I was 10 years ago and not what I will be in 10 years time. Am I flux??
Well I'd like to know what you mean by flux, although I am inclined to think you are indeed flux because you are, in many ways, a very complex pattern of change; hardly anything in your person remains constant throughout your lifetime. So I guess yes, I suppose we could say you are flux. However, if you think you're not flux because flux is something else that bears no relation to change, then you're probably right.

I don't know. Are you flux?

Thanks for remembering the conversation. Enjoy your weekend.
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05-04-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
(05-04-2014 05:27 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  "And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets."

I prefer to have a meaningful relationship with reality, not a Platonic one. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-04-2014, 07:37 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  I will refrain from asking you any further questions since you seem uncomfortable with me doing so. I nonetheless thank you for the replies you have already given me.

Enjoy whatever you do.

What a self-centered, presumptive response you have there, Grandma.

"All the better to insult you with, my dear."

Get over yourself.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-04-2014, 08:54 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  Let me please try to get something straight. What exactly is your point?

Don't have one.

Does this thread have one?

(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  Are you suggesting that I am wrong? If that is your point, good, I appreciate your perspective. This is, after all, a thread about gathering other people's perspectives and even though I may suggest a few topics, I can certainly not constrain the flow of the conversation to any specific subject. But don't worry, I know I can be wrong and I have already referred to my own view as "my crap" in this thread, as well as warning whoever may read my words not to take me seriously, so if you are trying to question my credibility, I have already taken care of that myself, but I am glad to see that we may actually agree on something.

Sure.

(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  Now, if you don't mind me skipping the sections of the conversation that are off the topic I raised in my original post...

I responded directly to things you said.

If that's "off topic", why did you say them?

(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  I think I understand your view of existence as a synonym for perception; things exist if they can somehow be perceived. Is that more or less how you view it?

Not really at all. Whatever exists does so independently of us (consistent external reality, remember?). Observation is simply how we learn. Anything else would be wallowing in solipsism.

(05-04-2014 05:46 AM)living thing Wrote:  I will refrain from asking you any further questions since you seem uncomfortable with me doing so.

That is a very bizarre non sequitur conclusion. It's certainly not based on anything I said; it appears to be something you simply made up.

But, uh, whatever floats your boat.

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05-04-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
Hello Chas, thanks for joining us.

I am sorry, I am not sure I understand what you mean. As I have explained before, English is not my native language. If the words you refer to are insulting, I beg for everyone's pardon; that was not at all my aim.

I think I understand what cjlr meant, because I have experienced situations in which a conversational party kept asking me to rephrase my sentences with no clear purpose and that made me feel uncomfortable. "Is this person interested in my opinion," I wondered, "or are they simply trying to drive me crazy?" Not knowing where a conversation is leading makes me feel slightly uncomfortable.

When I asked him to clarify what he meant when he used certain terms, his response was literally "is there a point to this epistemology 101? It's cool and all if it's born of curiosity, but you're probably also aware that such JAQing off is a very tired ploy," and I presumed that he was beginning to find himself in a situation like the one I have described above. If it was wrong of me to extrapolate my own experiences to his case, I apologise; I can only use this incident to remind anyone who may read my words not to take them seriously.

But you offer me a good piece of advice, and I would like to take it; I would like to get over myself. What should I do? Stop posting questions in online forums asking for other people's perspectives about this and that? Please let me point out that the source of this disagreement is that I have questioned GirlyMan's assertion that "the only ones who come even close to having access to 'reality' are the physicists. The rest of us only have access to a distortion of ... Consider ... something." Fair enough, it may be so, but can I not question it?

It is funny how your signature reads "skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims". What's the skeptical approach to claims? Take them as truths and shut the fuck up?

Ok, yes, physicists are the only ones who have access to "reality"; that is fine with me. Returning to the topic I did want to learn about, and assuming that you ever say things like "this exists" or "that does not exist", what do you mean when you use that word?

Thanks for enriching this thread with your perspective. Have a great time.
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05-04-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
Hello cjlr, thanks for coming back.

Can I please ask you a favour? I would like to apologise for any impression I may have caused you already, and I would like you to give me the chance for a clean start.

I am not trying to convince anyone about anything, and if I have offered my perspective within this thread, it is simply because I don't like asking for anything without returning anything similar in exchange. I'm asking others to educate me with their views, and all I can offer in exchange is my own subjective and possibly mistaken view, but that does not mean that anyone must take it as a truth; not even I take my views as truths, nor should anyone else.

I don't believe in any gods, I am all for reason and understanding. And that is the point to this thread, despite what it may seem from some of the messages it contains. My goal is understanding what other people mean when they talk. How can we be reasonable if we don't understand each other?

Now, you did leave a door open to my curiosity, and you have now referred again to an expression you used before: external reality. Please ignore me if you feel I am using an old tiring ploy on you, but I think you described that external reality as the consistent framework formed by our perceptions (which you more or less equated to observations). However, you have also explained that whatever exists does so independently of us, which is somehow related to the notion of a consistent external reality. But how can something exist in a consistent external reality that is independent of me, if that external reality is the consistent framework formed by my perceptions? I am not sure I follow you.

I thank you for your understanding and once again apologise if I have misrepresented my own position.

Yours sincerely.
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05-04-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Gathering perspectives
(05-04-2014 08:55 AM)living thing Wrote:  It is funny how your signature reads "skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims". What's the skeptical approach to claims? Take them as truths and shut the fuck up?

No, that would be the opposite of skepticism. Why would you think otherwise?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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