Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
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09-01-2016, 04:13 AM
Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
Anyone else seen this movie, let alone remember it?

[Image: Gattaca_1997_movie_poster.jpg]

For those who haven't, here's a plot synopsis in case you want to join in the discussion but otherwise have not seen the movie.


via Wikipedia


In "the not-too-distant future", eugenics is common. A genetic registry database uses biometrics to classify those so created as "valids" while those conceived by traditional means and more susceptible to genetic disorders are known as "in-valids". Genetic discrimination is illegal, but in practice genotype profiling is used to identify valids to qualify for professional employment while in-valids are relegated to menial jobs.

Vincent Freeman [Ethan Hawke] is conceived without the aid of genetic selection; his genetics indicate a high probability of several disorders and an estimated life span of 30.2 years. His parents, regretting their decision, use genetic selection to give birth to their next child, Anton. Growing up, the two brothers often play a game of "chicken" by swimming out to sea with the first one returning to shore considered the loser; Vincent always loses. Vincent dreams of a career in space travel but is reminded of his genetic inferiority. One day Vincent challenges Anton to a game of chicken and bests him before Anton starts to drown. Vincent saves Anton and then leaves home.

Vincent works as an in-valid, cleaning office spaces including that of Gattaca Aerospace Corporation, a space-flight conglomerate. He gets a chance to pose as a valid by using hair, skin, blood and urine samples from a donor, Jerome Eugene Morrow [Jude Law], who is a former swimming star paralyzed due to a car accident.[5] With Jerome's genetic makeup, Vincent gains employment at Gattaca, and is assigned to be navigator for an upcoming trip to Saturn's moon Titan. To keep his identity hidden, Vincent must meticulously groom and scrub down daily to remove his own genetic material, and pass daily DNA scanning and urine tests using Jerome's samples.

Gattaca becomes embroiled in controversy when one of its administrators is murdered a week before the flight. The police find a fallen eyelash of Vincent's at the scene. An investigation is launched to find the murderer, Vincent being the top suspect. Through this, Vincent becomes close to a co-worker, Irene Cassini [Uma Thurman], and falls in love with her. Though a valid, Irene has a higher risk of heart failure that will prevent her from joining any deep space Gattaca mission. Vincent also learns that Jerome's paralysis is by his own hand; after coming in second place in a swim meet, Jerome threw himself in front of a car. Jerome maintains that he was designed to be the best, yet wasn't, and that is the source of his suffering.

Vincent repeatedly evades scrutiny from the investigation, and it is revealed that Gattaca's mission director was the killer, as the administrator was threatening to cancel the mission. Vincent learns the identity of the detective who closed the case, his brother Anton, who has become aware of Vincent's presence. The brothers meet, and Anton warns Vincent that what he is doing is illegal, but Vincent asserts that he has gotten to this position on his own merits. Anton challenges Vincent to one more game of chicken. As the two swim out in the dead of night, Anton is surprised at Vincent's stamina, and Vincent reveals that his trick to winning was not saving energy for the swim back. Anton turns back and begins to drown, but Vincent rescues him and swims them both back to shore using celestial navigation.

On the day of the launch, Jerome reveals that he has stored enough DNA samples for Vincent to last two lifetimes upon his return, and gives him an envelope to open once in flight. After saying goodbye to Irene, Vincent prepares to board but discovers there is a final genetic test, and he currently lacks any of Jerome's samples. He is surprised when Dr. Lamar, the person in charge of background checks, reveals that he knows Vincent has been posing as a valid. Lamar admits that his son looks up to Vincent and wonders if his son, genetically selected but "not all that they promised", could break the limits just as Vincent has. He passes Vincent as a valid. As the rocket launches, Jerome dons his swimming medal and burns himself in his home's incinerator; Vincent opens the note from Jerome to find only a lock of Jerome's hair attached to it. Vincent muses on this, stating "For someone who was never meant for this world, I must confess, I’m suddenly having a hard time leaving it. Of course, they say every atom in our bodies was once a part of a star. Maybe I'm not leaving; maybe I'm going home."



Right, so we have a great character piece set in the backdrop of a smart near-future science fiction setting. We're meant to cheer for our protagonist in the face of discrimination and adversity, and the movie largely succeeds at getting the audience to do that.


But the more I think about this movie, the more I find myself less sympathetic with the protagonist. Let me explain.


The story takes place in the world during transition, the time between natural births and near universal genetic engineering to get the best possible outcome from any pairing. This is a good thing! Almost entirely eliminating the possibility of genetic defects and lowering or eliminating predisposition to things like heart disease and myopia? Sign us the fuck up! Provided such technology is not hoarded for the exclusive benefit of the wealthy elite, this is a net positive for the human race. However there is a transition phase, where naturally conceived people are slowly being phased out over a generation or so in favor of genetic selection. This is where the movie still, to this day, raises interesting questions about genetic discrimination (hiring practices, the police ignoring all other possibilities in favor of assuming the invalid is responsible, etc.). Race or ethnicity is skin deep, but is there a case to be made in favor genetic discrimination?


Hear me out. The massive yolk hanging around Vincent's neck is his 99% chance for a fatal heart condition, with a projected 30 year life span. According to their best science and evidence, Vincent's heart most probably will give out on him. While in the movie he has long surpassed his expected lifespan, he's still overwhelmingly predisposed to fatal heart conditions. Not only that, but it's illustrated in the movie itself in a scene where he is faking a standard physical exam that includes distance running. He comes close to blowing his cover, because his heart (although it has long surpassed it's expected self life) is clearly not up the the facade he is presenting. Now knowing this, wouldn't it be prudent for him to be screened out of contention for a multi-year long planned space flight to Jupiter's moon Titan? In concealing this very real possibility (in the name of the triumph of the human spirit in the face of adversity), isn't he placing his all of his crew members and the mission in danger? If you had the choice between two equally skilled and qualified individuals for such a mission, wouldn't you pick the one who didn't have a 99% chance of his heart giving out on him? Would such an action really be an uncalled for discrimination? Otherwise, should NASA start employing wheel-chair bound astronauts?


That being said, it is a movie, and it's trying to tell a story. I imagine that such a prognosis made at birth certainly should be updated, especially if someone has shown themselves to be that exceptional 1% chance to beat the odds. That's something that should be taken into consideration as well. But from a purely indifferent outside perspective, 99-to-1 odds are not something that anybody would rightly take a bet on; especially if those odds are built upon our most up to date and best science. You would hope there would be treatments or that we could otherwise help such predisposed individuals lead meaningful and productive lives. But if you have an otherwise insurmountable genetic predisposition for a fatal heart condition, is it wrong for everyone else to not take that 99-to-1 bet and place you on an elite space mission? I don't think that, in this particular instance, Gattaca Aerospace Corporation (Vincent's employer) is wrong. Vincent is lying, pretending to be something he is not, and with potentially lethal consequences for himself and those relying upon his facade. This makes him, in hindsight, a far less sympathetic protagonist.

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09-01-2016, 05:44 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
(09-01-2016 04:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Anyone else seen this movie, let alone remember it?

[Image: Gattaca_1997_movie_poster.jpg]

For those who haven't, here's a plot synopsis in case you want to join in the discussion but otherwise have not seen the movie.


via Wikipedia


In "the not-too-distant future", eugenics is common. A genetic registry database uses biometrics to classify those so created as "valids" while those conceived by traditional means and more susceptible to genetic disorders are known as "in-valids". Genetic discrimination is illegal, but in practice genotype profiling is used to identify valids to qualify for professional employment while in-valids are relegated to menial jobs.

Vincent Freeman [Ethan Hawke] is conceived without the aid of genetic selection; his genetics indicate a high probability of several disorders and an estimated life span of 30.2 years. His parents, regretting their decision, use genetic selection to give birth to their next child, Anton. Growing up, the two brothers often play a game of "chicken" by swimming out to sea with the first one returning to shore considered the loser; Vincent always loses. Vincent dreams of a career in space travel but is reminded of his genetic inferiority. One day Vincent challenges Anton to a game of chicken and bests him before Anton starts to drown. Vincent saves Anton and then leaves home.

Vincent works as an in-valid, cleaning office spaces including that of Gattaca Aerospace Corporation, a space-flight conglomerate. He gets a chance to pose as a valid by using hair, skin, blood and urine samples from a donor, Jerome Eugene Morrow [Jude Law], who is a former swimming star paralyzed due to a car accident.[5] With Jerome's genetic makeup, Vincent gains employment at Gattaca, and is assigned to be navigator for an upcoming trip to Saturn's moon Titan. To keep his identity hidden, Vincent must meticulously groom and scrub down daily to remove his own genetic material, and pass daily DNA scanning and urine tests using Jerome's samples.

Gattaca becomes embroiled in controversy when one of its administrators is murdered a week before the flight. The police find a fallen eyelash of Vincent's at the scene. An investigation is launched to find the murderer, Vincent being the top suspect. Through this, Vincent becomes close to a co-worker, Irene Cassini [Uma Thurman], and falls in love with her. Though a valid, Irene has a higher risk of heart failure that will prevent her from joining any deep space Gattaca mission. Vincent also learns that Jerome's paralysis is by his own hand; after coming in second place in a swim meet, Jerome threw himself in front of a car. Jerome maintains that he was designed to be the best, yet wasn't, and that is the source of his suffering.

Vincent repeatedly evades scrutiny from the investigation, and it is revealed that Gattaca's mission director was the killer, as the administrator was threatening to cancel the mission. Vincent learns the identity of the detective who closed the case, his brother Anton, who has become aware of Vincent's presence. The brothers meet, and Anton warns Vincent that what he is doing is illegal, but Vincent asserts that he has gotten to this position on his own merits. Anton challenges Vincent to one more game of chicken. As the two swim out in the dead of night, Anton is surprised at Vincent's stamina, and Vincent reveals that his trick to winning was not saving energy for the swim back. Anton turns back and begins to drown, but Vincent rescues him and swims them both back to shore using celestial navigation.

On the day of the launch, Jerome reveals that he has stored enough DNA samples for Vincent to last two lifetimes upon his return, and gives him an envelope to open once in flight. After saying goodbye to Irene, Vincent prepares to board but discovers there is a final genetic test, and he currently lacks any of Jerome's samples. He is surprised when Dr. Lamar, the person in charge of background checks, reveals that he knows Vincent has been posing as a valid. Lamar admits that his son looks up to Vincent and wonders if his son, genetically selected but "not all that they promised", could break the limits just as Vincent has. He passes Vincent as a valid. As the rocket launches, Jerome dons his swimming medal and burns himself in his home's incinerator; Vincent opens the note from Jerome to find only a lock of Jerome's hair attached to it. Vincent muses on this, stating "For someone who was never meant for this world, I must confess, I’m suddenly having a hard time leaving it. Of course, they say every atom in our bodies was once a part of a star. Maybe I'm not leaving; maybe I'm going home."



Right, so we have a great character piece set in the backdrop of a smart near-future science fiction setting. We're meant to cheer for our protagonist in the face of discrimination and adversity, and the movie largely succeeds at getting the audience to do that.


But the more I think about this movie, the more I find myself less sympathetic with the protagonist. Let me explain.


The story takes place in the world during transition, the time between natural births and near universal genetic engineering to get the best possible outcome from any pairing. This is a good thing! Almost entirely eliminating the possibility of genetic defects and lowering or eliminating predisposition to things like heart disease and myopia? Sign us the fuck up! Provided such technology is not hoarded for the exclusive benefit of the wealthy elite, this is a net positive for the human race. However there is a transition phase, where naturally conceived people are slowly being phased out over a generation or so in favor of genetic selection. This is where the movie still, to this day, raises interesting questions about genetic discrimination (hiring practices, the police ignoring all other possibilities in favor of assuming the invalid is responsible, etc.). Race or ethnicity is skin deep, but is there a case to be made in favor genetic discrimination?


Hear me out. The massive yolk hanging around Vincent's neck is his 99% chance for a fatal heart condition, with a projected 30 year life span. According to their best science and evidence, Vincent's heart most probably will give out on him. While in the movie he has long surpassed his expected lifespan, he's still overwhelmingly predisposed to fatal heart conditions. Not only that, but it's illustrated in the movie itself in a scene where he is faking a standard physical exam that includes distance running. He comes close to blowing his cover, because his heart (although it has long surpassed it's expected self life) is clearly not up the the facade he is presenting. Now knowing this, wouldn't it be prudent for him to be screened out of contention for a multi-year long planned space flight to Jupiter's moon Titan? In concealing this very real possibility (in the name of the triumph of the human spirit in the face of adversity), isn't he placing his all of his crew members and the mission in danger? If you had the choice between two equally skilled and qualified individuals for such a mission, wouldn't you pick the one who didn't have a 99% chance of his heart giving out on him? Would such an action really be an uncalled for discrimination? Otherwise, should NASA start employing wheel-chair bound astronauts?


That being said, it is a movie, and it's trying to tell a story. I imagine that such a prognosis made at birth certainly should be updated, especially if someone has shown themselves to be that exceptional 1% chance to beat the odds. That's something that should be taken into consideration as well. But from a purely indifferent outside perspective, 99-to-1 odds are not something that anybody would rightly take a bet on; especially if those odds are built upon our most up to date and best science. You would hope there would be treatments or that we could otherwise help such predisposed individuals lead meaningful and productive lives. But if you have an otherwise insurmountable genetic predisposition for a fatal heart condition, is it wrong for everyone else to not take that 99-to-1 bet and place you on an elite space mission? I don't think that, in this particular instance, Gattaca Aerospace Corporation (Vincent's employer) is wrong. Vincent is lying, pretending to be something he is not, and with potentially lethal consequences for himself and those relying upon his facade. This makes him, in hindsight, a far less sympathetic protagonist.

I remember the movie and that I watched it at school for reasons I don't think we ever followed up in class. I'm assuming the movie was a box office fail. It had an interesting concept but I don't remember if the movie was an entertaining watch.

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09-01-2016, 05:52 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
(09-01-2016 05:44 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  I remember the movie and that I watched it at school for reasons I don't think we ever followed up in class. I'm assuming the movie was a box office fail. It had an interesting concept but I don't remember if the movie was an entertaining watch.


It's a slow build character piece set in an interesting possible near-future used as the backdrop to explore themes of discrimination and triumph against adversity through a novel science fiction lens. The closest you get to an action scene is a scenario where Vincent needs to lose his contacts so they're not detected and he's outed as an in-valid, followed by attempting to cross a busy highway at night with his now severely handicapped eyesight.

In other words, just about the opposite of a Michael Bay movie. Tongue

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09-01-2016, 06:06 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
(09-01-2016 05:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 05:44 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  I remember the movie and that I watched it at school for reasons I don't think we ever followed up in class. I'm assuming the movie was a box office fail. It had an interesting concept but I don't remember if the movie was an entertaining watch.


It's a slow build character piece set in an interesting possible near-future used as the backdrop to explore themes of discrimination and triumph against adversity through a novel science fiction lens. The closest you get to an action scene is a scenario where Vincent needs to lose his contacts so they're not detected and he's outed as an in-valid, followed by attempting to cross a busy highway at night with his now severely handicapped eyesight.

In other words, just about the opposite of a Michael Bay movie. Tongue

Hmm. I seem to remember being annoyed by the villan brother, like that the movie implied that every parent or sibling is turned into an over the top villainous douchebag by the new world order or whatever. But the movie needs conflict I suppose... and it was a lot more sutble than other douchebag sibling roles out there.

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09-01-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
(09-01-2016 05:44 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(09-01-2016 04:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Anyone else seen this movie, let alone remember it?

[Image: Gattaca_1997_movie_poster.jpg]

For those who haven't, here's a plot synopsis in case you want to join in the discussion but otherwise have not seen the movie.


via Wikipedia


In "the not-too-distant future", eugenics is common. A genetic registry database uses biometrics to classify those so created as "valids" while those conceived by traditional means and more susceptible to genetic disorders are known as "in-valids". Genetic discrimination is illegal, but in practice genotype profiling is used to identify valids to qualify for professional employment while in-valids are relegated to menial jobs.

Vincent Freeman [Ethan Hawke] is conceived without the aid of genetic selection; his genetics indicate a high probability of several disorders and an estimated life span of 30.2 years. His parents, regretting their decision, use genetic selection to give birth to their next child, Anton. Growing up, the two brothers often play a game of "chicken" by swimming out to sea with the first one returning to shore considered the loser; Vincent always loses. Vincent dreams of a career in space travel but is reminded of his genetic inferiority. One day Vincent challenges Anton to a game of chicken and bests him before Anton starts to drown. Vincent saves Anton and then leaves home.

Vincent works as an in-valid, cleaning office spaces including that of Gattaca Aerospace Corporation, a space-flight conglomerate. He gets a chance to pose as a valid by using hair, skin, blood and urine samples from a donor, Jerome Eugene Morrow [Jude Law], who is a former swimming star paralyzed due to a car accident.[5] With Jerome's genetic makeup, Vincent gains employment at Gattaca, and is assigned to be navigator for an upcoming trip to Saturn's moon Titan. To keep his identity hidden, Vincent must meticulously groom and scrub down daily to remove his own genetic material, and pass daily DNA scanning and urine tests using Jerome's samples.

Gattaca becomes embroiled in controversy when one of its administrators is murdered a week before the flight. The police find a fallen eyelash of Vincent's at the scene. An investigation is launched to find the murderer, Vincent being the top suspect. Through this, Vincent becomes close to a co-worker, Irene Cassini [Uma Thurman], and falls in love with her. Though a valid, Irene has a higher risk of heart failure that will prevent her from joining any deep space Gattaca mission. Vincent also learns that Jerome's paralysis is by his own hand; after coming in second place in a swim meet, Jerome threw himself in front of a car. Jerome maintains that he was designed to be the best, yet wasn't, and that is the source of his suffering.

Vincent repeatedly evades scrutiny from the investigation, and it is revealed that Gattaca's mission director was the killer, as the administrator was threatening to cancel the mission. Vincent learns the identity of the detective who closed the case, his brother Anton, who has become aware of Vincent's presence. The brothers meet, and Anton warns Vincent that what he is doing is illegal, but Vincent asserts that he has gotten to this position on his own merits. Anton challenges Vincent to one more game of chicken. As the two swim out in the dead of night, Anton is surprised at Vincent's stamina, and Vincent reveals that his trick to winning was not saving energy for the swim back. Anton turns back and begins to drown, but Vincent rescues him and swims them both back to shore using celestial navigation.

On the day of the launch, Jerome reveals that he has stored enough DNA samples for Vincent to last two lifetimes upon his return, and gives him an envelope to open once in flight. After saying goodbye to Irene, Vincent prepares to board but discovers there is a final genetic test, and he currently lacks any of Jerome's samples. He is surprised when Dr. Lamar, the person in charge of background checks, reveals that he knows Vincent has been posing as a valid. Lamar admits that his son looks up to Vincent and wonders if his son, genetically selected but "not all that they promised", could break the limits just as Vincent has. He passes Vincent as a valid. As the rocket launches, Jerome dons his swimming medal and burns himself in his home's incinerator; Vincent opens the note from Jerome to find only a lock of Jerome's hair attached to it. Vincent muses on this, stating "For someone who was never meant for this world, I must confess, I’m suddenly having a hard time leaving it. Of course, they say every atom in our bodies was once a part of a star. Maybe I'm not leaving; maybe I'm going home."



Right, so we have a great character piece set in the backdrop of a smart near-future science fiction setting. We're meant to cheer for our protagonist in the face of discrimination and adversity, and the movie largely succeeds at getting the audience to do that.


But the more I think about this movie, the more I find myself less sympathetic with the protagonist. Let me explain.


The story takes place in the world during transition, the time between natural births and near universal genetic engineering to get the best possible outcome from any pairing. This is a good thing! Almost entirely eliminating the possibility of genetic defects and lowering or eliminating predisposition to things like heart disease and myopia? Sign us the fuck up! Provided such technology is not hoarded for the exclusive benefit of the wealthy elite, this is a net positive for the human race. However there is a transition phase, where naturally conceived people are slowly being phased out over a generation or so in favor of genetic selection. This is where the movie still, to this day, raises interesting questions about genetic discrimination (hiring practices, the police ignoring all other possibilities in favor of assuming the invalid is responsible, etc.). Race or ethnicity is skin deep, but is there a case to be made in favor genetic discrimination?


Hear me out. The massive yolk hanging around Vincent's neck is his 99% chance for a fatal heart condition, with a projected 30 year life span. According to their best science and evidence, Vincent's heart most probably will give out on him. While in the movie he has long surpassed his expected lifespan, he's still overwhelmingly predisposed to fatal heart conditions. Not only that, but it's illustrated in the movie itself in a scene where he is faking a standard physical exam that includes distance running. He comes close to blowing his cover, because his heart (although it has long surpassed it's expected self life) is clearly not up the the facade he is presenting. Now knowing this, wouldn't it be prudent for him to be screened out of contention for a multi-year long planned space flight to Jupiter's moon Titan? In concealing this very real possibility (in the name of the triumph of the human spirit in the face of adversity), isn't he placing his all of his crew members and the mission in danger? If you had the choice between two equally skilled and qualified individuals for such a mission, wouldn't you pick the one who didn't have a 99% chance of his heart giving out on him? Would such an action really be an uncalled for discrimination? Otherwise, should NASA start employing wheel-chair bound astronauts?


That being said, it is a movie, and it's trying to tell a story. I imagine that such a prognosis made at birth certainly should be updated, especially if someone has shown themselves to be that exceptional 1% chance to beat the odds. That's something that should be taken into consideration as well. But from a purely indifferent outside perspective, 99-to-1 odds are not something that anybody would rightly take a bet on; especially if those odds are built upon our most up to date and best science. You would hope there would be treatments or that we could otherwise help such predisposed individuals lead meaningful and productive lives. But if you have an otherwise insurmountable genetic predisposition for a fatal heart condition, is it wrong for everyone else to not take that 99-to-1 bet and place you on an elite space mission? I don't think that, in this particular instance, Gattaca Aerospace Corporation (Vincent's employer) is wrong. Vincent is lying, pretending to be something he is not, and with potentially lethal consequences for himself and those relying upon his facade. This makes him, in hindsight, a far less sympathetic protagonist.

I remember the movie and that I watched it at school for reasons I don't think we ever followed up in class. I'm assuming the movie was a box office fail. It had an interesting concept but I don't remember if the movie was an entertaining watch.

I as well recall watching it in school, in science class of 8th grade I believe. Or perhaps another time and it was only Contact I saw in that class. Either way I've seen it since then but not too recently.

It's a solid movie though you can question the philosophical angle of it. There is the whole discrimination of "love-babies" thing going on in it which, positive or negative I was fond of seeing added. I don't recall the whole space-mission being anything special or that important but I suppose they don't focus too much on that point of what the mission was for, it's more driven about his desire to go into space.

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09-01-2016, 07:25 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
I kind of saw it as plain old identity theft.....

Pretending to be, who/what he is not.


Vincent was a criminal.

.......................................

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09-01-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
Defects aside there is still the danger of creating a human monoculture allowing only those gene combinations already proven to work. Diversity is good thing.

As for astronauts, the best and brightest are chosen for a reason.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-01-2016, 07:34 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
I love that movie, but it was made anachronistic almost immediately. The Alan Arkin character and his crew zip in, eager to vacuum up stray hairs and the like, when in truth, all they needed to do was grab a keyboard, because DNA sensing is that sensitive. The corollary to that is that no human could possibly remove all his/her DNA from an environment where he/she had spent so much time.

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09-01-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
I've seen it several times and will likely watch it again soon as it is a favorite. I've heard others complain that it is too slow but I tend to prefer movies that actually develop characters and offer something to think about.

The business about him risking the mission and the lives of his fellow astronauts bothered me from the first time I saw it. His lying about who and what he is to everyone, including the girl he's interested in, also makes him a kind of anti-hero in some ways.

The idea that you need to be willing to work towards your goals and be willing to sacrifice for them is nicely contrasted with the question of how much sacrifice and deception is too much. It is possible to be sympathetic to Vincent while still accepting that he is a very flawed individual.

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09-01-2016, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2016 12:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Gattaca: A Changed Perspective
(09-01-2016 07:25 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I kind of saw it as plain old identity theft.....

It wasn't theft so much as a mutually beneficial arrangement.

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