"Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
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26-02-2013, 06:17 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(26-02-2013 04:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-02-2013 11:16 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  The animal argument is a direct answer to anyone who claims that homosexuality is "against nature." Animals practicing it regularly is clear evidence it is perfectly natural.
Animals practice pedophilia and incest, is that clear evidence that pedophilia and incest are perfectly natural too? Suppose a brother and sister one of who is sterile, want to get it on, should we look down on them or prosecute them if they do? Personally I don't care what gays do. I just think that it is a bad argument that because homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom thats justifies not considering it a taboo.
Do not confuse an argument with a response to an argument.

The citations of behaviors among animals is a response to those who argue that homosexuality is "unnatural" and therefore is wrong. That argument is baseless.

If a society has a taboo against a behavior that is natural, its justification has to be something other than "it's unnatural".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-02-2013, 06:45 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(26-02-2013 04:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-02-2013 11:16 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  The animal argument is a direct answer to anyone who claims that homosexuality is "against nature." Animals practicing it regularly is clear evidence it is perfectly natural.
Animals practice pedophilia and incest, is that clear evidence that pedophilia and incest are perfectly natural too? Suppose a brother and sister one of who is sterile, want to get it on, should we look down on them or prosecute them if they do? Personally I don't care what gays do. I just think that it is a bad argument that because homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom thats justifies not considering it a taboo.
Can it not be natural and Taboo? idk just saying. I'm all for gay rights, but its still strange to me how a man could be attracted to another man. It is natural AND taboo to me.... and on the morality front, when it comes to what jesus actually said christians dont seem to pay too much attention to that. Its like Bill Mahr says in "Religilous" if Christians were more Christ like they wouldn't be so bad.
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26-02-2013, 07:37 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(26-02-2013 06:45 AM)wayned123 Wrote:  Can it not be natural and Taboo? idk just saying.

taboo: "A taboo is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too sacred or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment."

Please explain to me what exactly makes homosexuality a taboo.

Quote:I'm all for gay rights, but its still strange to me how a man could be attracted to another man. It is natural AND taboo to me....


Doesn't the cognitive dissonance give you headaches?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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26-02-2013, 12:39 PM
"Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(26-02-2013 06:45 AM)wayned123 Wrote:  ...but its still strange to me how a man could be attracted to another man.

That's an argument from incredulity. Just because you can't understand or visualize something does not make it unnatural.

Perhaps we should carefully define "natural" if we plan to nitpick it? Is that even possible? When arguing issues like these it tends to be abused.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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27-02-2013, 02:16 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(26-02-2013 06:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-02-2013 04:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Animals practice pedophilia and incest, is that clear evidence that pedophilia and incest are perfectly natural too? Suppose a brother and sister one of who is sterile, want to get it on, should we look down on them or prosecute them if they do? Personally I don't care what gays do. I just think that it is a bad argument that because homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom thats justifies not considering it a taboo.
Do not confuse an argument with a response to an argument.

The citations of behaviors among animals is a response to those who argue that homosexuality is "unnatural" and therefore is wrong. That argument is baseless.

If a society has a taboo against a behavior that is natural, its justification has to be something other than "it's unnatural".
It is a bad response. When critics of gay rights claim homosexuality is "unnatural" they are really saying homosexuality isn't the usual and ordinary course of nature. When gay rights advocates respond by saying homosexuality is natural because it occurs in nature, he/she is using a different definition of "natural" then the critics. To be an effective response(meaning to persuade the opposition to change their minds) the gay rights advocates have to use "natural" in the same way as the critics.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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27-02-2013, 02:20 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(27-02-2013 02:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To be an effective response(meaning to persuade the opposition to change their minds) the gay rights advocates have to use "natural" in the same way as the critics.
What about when the critics are talking out of their asses (which is 100% of the time)? Should the counter-arguments come from the same place?


(And, please, no one go there. That'd be too obvious even for us.)

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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27-02-2013, 02:37 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(27-02-2013 02:20 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(27-02-2013 02:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To be an effective response(meaning to persuade the opposition to change their minds) the gay rights advocates have to use "natural" in the same way as the critics.
What about when the critics are talking out of their asses (which is 100% of the time)? Should the counter-arguments come from the same place?


(And, please, no one go there. That'd be too obvious even for us.)
Perhaps you can give some examples of "critics talking out of their asses" and I can then try to offer suggestions on appropriate responses.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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27-02-2013, 02:39 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(27-02-2013 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps you can give some examples of "critics talking out of their asses" and I can then try to offer suggestions on appropriate responses.
No I can't. I don't have the time to quote every single "argument" every bigot has ever made.

You give me one, just one semi-valid argument against homosexuality and we might, just might, have a discussion.

However, seeing as there are none...

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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27-02-2013, 02:46 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(27-02-2013 02:39 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(27-02-2013 02:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps you can give some examples of "critics talking out of their asses" and I can then try to offer suggestions on appropriate responses.
No I can't. I don't have the time to quote every single "argument" every bigot has ever made.

You give me one, just one semi-valid argument against homosexuality and we might, just might, have a discussion.

However, seeing as there are none...


I'll help you out.

If a gay rights critic says, "Homosexuality is unnatural". An appropriate response might be "So what? Does that make it wrong or evil? IQs of 150 are unnatural too.... should we go burn down MENSA houses and shun super smart people?"

If you say " homosexuality is natural because it occurs in nature", the critic is going to think your an idiot who doesn't understand what "natural" means. And the sad part is the critic has some justification because you didn't make a compelling counter argument.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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27-02-2013, 02:55 AM
RE: "Gay marriage makes Jesus cry"
(27-02-2013 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If a gay rights critic says, "Homosexuality is unnatural". An appropriate response might be "So what? Does that make it wrong or evil? IQs of 150 are unnatural too....
Really? I mean, really?!

Do you know the difference between not common and unnatural?

I suggest you open a dictionary.
Quote:If you say " homosexuality is natural because it occurs in nature", the critic is going to think your an idiot who doesn't understand what "natural" means. And the sad part is the critic has some justification because you didn't make a compelling counter argument.
Don't bring it back to the natural/unnatural dichotomy (with which you're obviously groping somewhat). I said that your suggestion that normal people should use the same definitions as bigots, is flawed, as that would imply they, too, should start pulling "arguments" out of their asses. Which is what gay rights "critics" do.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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