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Genetic relationship between Homininae
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17-12-2012, 12:08 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
Ok, so the close similarities between the gorilla and the human are alleles that one of the ancestors gave to both the gorilla and the human lineage, but not the chimpanzee lineage, and the alleles shared by both chimpanzees and gorillas were not bred into the human. The reason why gorillas show a higher similarity to humans than to chimpanzees is becuase the chimpanzee shares less of these inherited alleles with the gorilla than the gorilla does with the human.

First time I heard about Incomplete lineage sorting, but I think that's correct from what I read about it. Nature is very messy, it's practically impossible for everything to go smoothly huh.

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17-12-2012, 12:57 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
(17-12-2012 12:08 PM)Hikaru Wrote:  Ok, so the close similarities between the gorilla and the human are alleles that one of the ancestors gave to both the gorilla and the human lineage, but not the chimpanzee lineage, and the alleles shared by both chimpanzees and gorillas were not bred into the human. The reason why gorillas show a higher similarity to humans than to chimpanzees is becuase the chimpanzee shares less of these inherited alleles with the gorilla than the gorilla does with the human.

First time I heard about Incomplete lineage sorting, but I think that's correct from what I read about it. Nature is very messy, it's practically impossible for everything to go smoothly huh.
No.
Gorillas and the chimp/human ancestor split. The chimp/human split happened after that, starting from an animal that already wasn't a gorilla. Chimps and humans are related to gorillas exactly equally.

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17-12-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
(17-12-2012 12:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 12:08 PM)Hikaru Wrote:  Ok, so the close similarities between the gorilla and the human are alleles that one of the ancestors gave to both the gorilla and the human lineage, but not the chimpanzee lineage, and the alleles shared by both chimpanzees and gorillas were not bred into the human. The reason why gorillas show a higher similarity to humans than to chimpanzees is becuase the chimpanzee shares less of these inherited alleles with the gorilla than the gorilla does with the human.

First time I heard about Incomplete lineage sorting, but I think that's correct from what I read about it. Nature is very messy, it's practically impossible for everything to go smoothly huh.
No.
Gorillas and the chimp/human ancestor split. The chimp/human split happened after that, starting from an animal that already wasn't a gorilla. Chimps and humans are related to gorillas exactly equally.
Wait...Incomplete lineage sorting is synonymous with Common Descent??? Yea, ok i'm confused, I give up for today.

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17-12-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
Wait, ok, now I know I got Incomplete lineage sorting right.
The common ancestor of humans, chimpanzees and gorillas shared various alleles. During the split between Human/Chimpanzee and gorillas 12Mya, the alleles were all equally distributed to the two animals. During the split between humans and chimpanzees 7Mya, chimpanzees drastically lost many of the alleles that the common ancestor once had 12Mya while the human retained many of the alleles. Coincidentally the gorilla also retained many of its alleles 12Mya and gave layman the illusion that the gorillas shared more in common with the human, when in reality, it was simply the chimp losing more of it's ancestal alleles due to natural selection than the other two great apes.

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17-12-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
[Image: hominid_divergence.jpg]

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
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17-12-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
(17-12-2012 03:41 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  [Image: hominid_divergence.jpg]


That diagram is not accurate - where did it come from?

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17-12-2012, 03:47 PM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
Google. Meant it more snarkily than as major scientific data. Wink

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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19-12-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
Sup, Sulu?

My understanding is that Homo/Pan and Gorilla share a common ancestor but that the initial split was Homo/Pan -- Gorilla. So whatever drift has occurred between Homo and Pan, we still split from Gorillas before that occurred. So we're always going to be closer to Pan than we are to Gorilla.

For the record, the governing principal here is genetic drift.

Taxanomically it's:
Family Homninidae
Subfamily Pongo split off from our line
Then Subfamily Gorillinae split off from our line
That left subfamily Homininae
Homininae split again into Tribe Hominini and Tribe Panini
Tribe Panini leads to Genus Pan and the two species Pan troglodyte and Pan paniscus
Tribe Hominini splits again into Subtribe Australopithecina and Subtribe Hominina
Australopithecina splits into three genera, Ardipithecus, Austraopithecus and Panthropus
Hominina contains Genus Homo which contains over a dozen species

[Image: nature09687-f1.2.jpg]


So Homo's closest LIVING relative (because all of Australopithecina is extinct) is Tribe Panini.
Our next closest relative (for both Hominini and Panini, or Subfamily Homininae) is Subfamily Gorillinae
But Gorillinae's closest relative is Homininae because there aren't as many splits within Gorillinae
The next closest relative for Subfamilie's Gorillinae and Homininae is Subfamily Pongo.

To sum up, human's closest relatives are chimps. Gorillas closest relatives are both chimps and humans.

Whether or not Gorillas are "closer" to Chimps or Humans is a genomic question. Like what's the percentage of similarity. But whichever of the two it's closer to, it's still further from both than they are from each other.

For example, two brothers. One brother has two sons. The uncle, however more genomically similar he is to one of his nephews over the other, is still further from them than they are from each other. That's true even if the father had the sons with two different women and one was Chinese and the other was Sri Lankan.

Make any sense?

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19-12-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
(19-12-2012 09:38 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Whether or not Gorillas are "closer" to Chimps or Humans is a genomic question. Like what's the percentage of similarity. But whichever of the two it's closer to, it's still further from both than they are from each other.

For example, two brothers. One brother has two sons. The uncle, however more genomically similar he is to one of his nephews over the other, is still further from them than they are from each other. That's true even if the father had the sons with two different women and one was Chinese and the other was Sri Lankan.
That was the question I was asking. A trivial question that doesn't really tell you much aside from who is more similar to who. Not the question of who is more related to who. I think my question was mistaken for the latter looking at the type of answers I got. Although I suppose that the data isn't that great at the moment since they only recently sequenced the gorilla. No matter though, I can wait for definitive answers with future research.

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19-12-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: Genetic relationship between Homininae
(19-12-2012 10:19 AM)Hikaru Wrote:  That was the question I was asking. A trivial question that doesn't really tell you much aside from who is more similar to who. Not the question of who is more related to who. I think my question was mistaken for the latter looking at the type of answers I got. Although I suppose that the data isn't that great at the moment since they only recently sequenced the gorilla. No matter though, I can wait for definitive answers with future research.

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