Genocide in the Bible
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23-09-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(19-09-2013 11:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Did I not own up to it multiple pages ago on this and other threads? "Genocide is okay [when god so commands]." God killed almost everyone in the Flood!

And you're offering subjective reasons why it's not okay. So, we can agree to disagree or are your subjective truths wholly true and binding on others?

Your 'objective' standards are built around the subjective stories passed down by subjective humans with subjective agendas and copied and edited by others with their own subjective agendas and interpretations, translated and re-edited over and over again, going through more and more subjective filters; until it is finally interpenetrated by your own subjective mind.

This is the basis for your 'objective' truth, and it's an 'objective' joke! Laughat

I didn't state my standards are objective. If there is an omnipotent god he could provide such. But mine are subjective. I ask again why your subjective standards are "right".
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23-09-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(22-09-2013 10:41 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  
(16-09-2013 12:37 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  


PJ:

I was wrong, I thought that you had some intellectual integrity. You don't.

The idea that the the slavery of the Christian Old Testament was more akin to domestic servants than modern slavery is repudiated by your own bible. Your cited post of 30,000 words of drivel tries to make the claims that 1. Slaves weren't property 2. it was voluntary and 3. they were treated well. I don't need 30,000 words, I just need one quote from your bible. Your bible says:

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)"

You can beat your slave and as long as they don't die right away with no punishment, that is cruelty. Second, the slave IS property that can be bought or sold. Third, it is clearly NOT voluntary, since no slave would continue to allow themselves to be beaten nearly to death if they could just walk away. They can beat them until they almost die!!! Fucking eat shit on this point you liar.

The punishment for a servant who was injured was loss of income for the landowner. The punishment for killing a servant was... death. There were actually more punishments for hurting slaves/servants physically or via property as demonstrated on a comparison chart in the article you ignored. I'll repeat, servitude in the ANE for the Israelites was akin to a corporate takeover now. You owed the boss work and the boss owed you income. You could certainly walk away and look for other employment and in both cases there was risk (finding a parcel of land to work/finding a job to work for another firm).

Quote:Your ridiculous comment that the wars were never really "over" but lasted until the exile to Babylon is so retarded that it doesn't deserve a retort, but I will:

31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. (31:14)
(31:15) "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?"

(31:17) "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."

(31:18) "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

So the war was over, the men had returned from battle, and Moses commanded them to GO BACK AND KILL ALL THE NON-VIRGIN WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

The battle was over, and Genocide was commanded. Fucking eat it again you liar. I've quoted this to you more than once already.

Because I have quoted this to you three times and you still claim ignorance to what your bible clearly says, you have proven that you will try to LIE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL YOU ARE CALLED ON IT to prove a point that supports your christian claims. There is no way this is just ignorance, it is total and straight-forward deceit. Every christian apologist I've seen ends up here, and that's why they get no respect.

You are a Liar and have no moral standing here. Good luck with your Divine fiat line of reasoning, you will need it.

Huh? I admitted this was the command of god. Anyone who reads the Bible speaking before the Israelites entered the land is ignorant if they are uncertain god commanded the war and the killings within the war. Clearly genocide of any kind upsets you. It's up to you to consider whether capital punishments for certain crimes are permissible. As an aside, I've been reading some books in the Dune series again where prescient, near omnipotent leaders proscribe genocide for the common good. Interesting stuff.

And of course, the question whether to kill an infant Stalin or Pol Pot hinges on... omniscience.
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23-09-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You could certainly walk away and look for other employment and in both cases there was risk (finding a parcel of land to work/finding a job to work for another firm).

Well that's a relief. If you didn't like your master, er, employer, you could walk away and the only recourse would be unemployment. It's a wonder the bible even needs to mention laws about harming your, ah, "employees."

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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23-09-2013, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2013 11:06 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 02:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 11:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your 'objective' standards are built around the subjective stories passed down by subjective humans with subjective agendas and copied and edited by others with their own subjective agendas and interpretations, translated and re-edited over and over again, going through more and more subjective filters; until it is finally interpenetrated by your own subjective mind.

This is the basis for your 'objective' truth, and it's an 'objective' joke! Laughat

I didn't state my standards are objective. If there is an omnipotent god he could provide such. But mine are subjective. I ask again why your subjective standards are "right".


Mine may not be. However I rely on reasoning, logic, and empathy for mine; not the call to authority of 2000+ year old story books filled with tales created by illiterate barbaric goat herders in Bronze Age Palestine who were fond of war, raping of female prisoners of war, and the genocide of neighboring tribes. Drinking Beverage

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23-09-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You could certainly walk away and look for other employment and in both cases there was risk (finding a parcel of land to work/finding a job to work for another firm).

Well that's a relief. If you didn't like your master, er, employer, you could walk away and the only recourse would be unemployment. It's a wonder the bible even needs to mention laws about harming your, ah, "employees."

+1. Yeah, harming your employees nearly to death. No punishment. HILARIOUS. I really want this job, so I'll take this deforming beating because I can't get any other job?

SUCH BULLSHIT! LACKING TOTAL INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY. LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE JESUS!

Might as well not even be here if you are going to be so dishonest.

So all Hitler needed was God's approval in spoken form, which he said he had, so he's all good. Divine fiat - here you go, all good. How can YOU question Hitler since he had the exact same moral authority that Moses had?

Answer: Logically, you can't. Your moral code allows for Genocide, Mine doesn't. So the question for you is - was it authored by God? For me, all Genocide is immoral. Bang and done. How do I judge it? By my personal moral code that I came up with out of thin air! Am I right? Damn straight. How do I know? I know because I'm not sitting here justifying Genocide for any reason on a keyboard, when if Genocide was happening in the streets - you know both of us would in actuality be taking up arms to defend the defenseless. If you deny this, you deny your own empathy - which you have! You know you have it, I know I have it.

You want to say my sense of empathy is God given, I'm saying its the result of millions of years of brain development - the ability to know how I want to be treated, to apply what I want through brain power to other people to "sit in their shoes" and then say it is logically inconsistent for me to expect to be treated one way and not expect others to want the same thing.

Because it is internally consistent - there is no cognitive dissonance and is a correct moral understanding because its what I want for myself. It's basically a mirror moral theory. Is it perfect, nah, but its definitely better than a moral code that provides for beating of slaves and, at a minimum, was a shitty confusing code of ethics that at best did not condemn slavery at at worst encouraged it, vs. a moral ethic that does not provide any form of justified genocide or slavery.

The point is an "objective, absolute" moral code that includes slavery and genocide is inherently worse than a subjective moral code that does not. Your own life experience affirms this - watch videos of genocide on television and assume that God commanded it, does it make it any better? Is it ever, actually justified? Clearly if this is how God acted in the past, he has to be acting this way right? No? Oh how convenient for you.

Modern society does not need to accept that any genocide is justified for any reason because we are smarter than that. The idea that it is ever justified for any reason is to reverse human progress thousands of years.

I would much rather have a completely INVENTED human moral code that does not include slavery or genocide over a divinely given code that does. It provides me no comfort whatsoever that a moral code is "objective and absolute" when it is so completely subject to the potential for abuse by wrong-minded people. Your morality is inferior because it allows for this type of abuse, mine does not. Where does it come from? ME! Can I apply it to other people? YES! I choose to all the time. No one ever debates that Genocide is wrong in reality. No one. Only Keyboard bandits even try to make this argument.

Your implication is that we have climbed the ladder of Christianity to a moral code that is superior, and then kicked away the ladder. My point is the Christianity without additional human empathy and reason would have never gotten us here, and in fact we got to this point in human history IN SPITE of christian texts.

The people in the Bible are monsters, your justification of their behaviors is horrible, evil, and dangerous.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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23-09-2013, 11:09 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 02:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 02:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Not explicitly. So thank you for saying so. Pure divine command for you, then, is it?


The difference is that you don't think your reasons are subjective.

Of course I judge by my subjective standards. I have no other grounds on which to judge.

I didn't state my standards are objective. If there is an omnipotent god he could provide such. But mine are subjective. I ask again why your subjective standards are "right".

For starters, because they can't ever be used to justify Genocide.

And yours? Why are they "right?" Because they make no sense, are internally contradictory, and can be used to justify the worst atrocities in human history? Or are they right for some other reason?

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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24-09-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You could certainly walk away and look for other employment and in both cases there was risk (finding a parcel of land to work/finding a job to work for another firm).

Well that's a relief. If you didn't like your master, er, employer, you could walk away and the only recourse would be unemployment. It's a wonder the bible even needs to mention laws about harming your, ah, "employees."

You are strengthening my point. There are no rules about harming your boss because God's Law is favoring the weaker party here, the one not having indentured servants but the indentured servants themselves.
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24-09-2013, 08:46 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 09:24 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 02:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I didn't state my standards are objective. If there is an omnipotent god he could provide such. But mine are subjective. I ask again why your subjective standards are "right".


Mine may not be. However I rely on reasoning, logic, and empathy for mine; not the call to authority of 2000+ year old story books filled with tales created by illiterate barbaric goat herders in Bronze Age Palestine who were fond of war, raping of female prisoners of war, and the genocide of neighboring tribes. Drinking Beverage

From where did you derive your reasoning, logic and empathy? Were there any documents involved? Are they innate qualities in their total development or did you learn anything regarding ethics in, for example, a classroom, where writers from the past spoke through documents?
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24-09-2013, 08:47 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 08:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  From where did you derive your reasoning, logic and empathy? Were there any documents involved? Are they innate qualities in their total development or did you learn anything regarding ethics in, for example, a classroom, where writers from the past spoke through documents?

Relevance?

If you're going somewhere with this, please go there faster.

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24-09-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 10:59 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 04:35 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Well that's a relief. If you didn't like your master, er, employer, you could walk away and the only recourse would be unemployment. It's a wonder the bible even needs to mention laws about harming your, ah, "employees."

+1. Yeah, harming your employees nearly to death. No punishment. HILARIOUS. I really want this job, so I'll take this deforming beating because I can't get any other job?

SUCH BULLSHIT! LACKING TOTAL INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY. LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE JESUS!

Might as well not even be here if you are going to be so dishonest.

So all Hitler needed was God's approval in spoken form, which he said he had, so he's all good. Divine fiat - here you go, all good. How can YOU question Hitler since he had the exact same moral authority that Moses had?

Answer: Logically, you can't. Your moral code allows for Genocide, Mine doesn't. So the question for you is - was it authored by God? For me, all Genocide is immoral. Bang and done. How do I judge it? By my personal moral code that I came up with out of thin air! Am I right? Damn straight. How do I know? I know because I'm not sitting here justifying Genocide for any reason on a keyboard, when if Genocide was happening in the streets - you know both of us would in actuality be taking up arms to defend the defenseless. If you deny this, you deny your own empathy - which you have! You know you have it, I know I have it.

You want to say my sense of empathy is God given, I'm saying its the result of millions of years of brain development - the ability to know how I want to be treated, to apply what I want through brain power to other people to "sit in their shoes" and then say it is logically inconsistent for me to expect to be treated one way and not expect others to want the same thing.

Because it is internally consistent - there is no cognitive dissonance and is a correct moral understanding because its what I want for myself. It's basically a mirror moral theory. Is it perfect, nah, but its definitely better than a moral code that provides for beating of slaves and, at a minimum, was a shitty confusing code of ethics that at best did not condemn slavery at at worst encouraged it, vs. a moral ethic that does not provide any form of justified genocide or slavery.

The point is an "objective, absolute" moral code that includes slavery and genocide is inherently worse than a subjective moral code that does not. Your own life experience affirms this - watch videos of genocide on television and assume that God commanded it, does it make it any better? Is it ever, actually justified? Clearly if this is how God acted in the past, he has to be acting this way right? No? Oh how convenient for you.

Modern society does not need to accept that any genocide is justified for any reason because we are smarter than that. The idea that it is ever justified for any reason is to reverse human progress thousands of years.

I would much rather have a completely INVENTED human moral code that does not include slavery or genocide over a divinely given code that does. It provides me no comfort whatsoever that a moral code is "objective and absolute" when it is so completely subject to the potential for abuse by wrong-minded people. Your morality is inferior because it allows for this type of abuse, mine does not. Where does it come from? ME! Can I apply it to other people? YES! I choose to all the time. No one ever debates that Genocide is wrong in reality. No one. Only Keyboard bandits even try to make this argument.

Your implication is that we have climbed the ladder of Christianity to a moral code that is superior, and then kicked away the ladder. My point is the Christianity without additional human empathy and reason would have never gotten us here, and in fact we got to this point in human history IN SPITE of christian texts.

The people in the Bible are monsters, your justification of their behaviors is horrible, evil, and dangerous.

1. I didn't state the Bible documents are an "objective" moral code as you put it. I think rather the opposite. It's subjective when modified by human thought, as is your code, and I am again challenging you as to how you know, via what empirical evidence, what is right and wrong, because much of your objections above I would classify as a mix of your presentism combined with a lack of understanding about the Bible texts.

2. I am unable to justify the behavior of people in the Bible. I am happy to present an apologetic for it in context. For one important example, you have a non sequitur with your Hitler example and divine fiat. The question is really several:

Does god have the right to play god? If so, can he talk to a Hitler or a Moses and tell them what he'd like done? Is that okay with you if god talks to some people but not all? Why or why not?

If god is not talking to you, on what basis are you certain your modern ethical sensibilities are "right" and apply to all people who've ever lived, including those of Bible times?
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