Genocide in the Bible
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24-09-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 08:44 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are strengthening my point. There are no rules about harming your boss because God's Law is favoring the weaker party here, the one not having indentured servants but the indentured servants themselves.

I'm glad I was able to strengthen your point. It certainly needs strengthening. So, to summarize your view:

1. There were no slaves and the bible does not condones slavery;
2. You could walk away (interesting, as an indentured servant is under contract);
3. The omission of rules forbidding 'servants' from harming their masters means the servants were weak, but still not slaves, and free to come and go;

I'm curious, however, about the "indentured servant" term you've chosen to use. You informed me that people could walk away if they didn't like their job. That's a violation of contract.

I'm also curious about you saying the servants were weak. Without the 'employees,' the 'boss' has no labor with which to run business. They are equals who mutually benefit each other; they also physically outnumber their 'bosses.' I'm not sure why you consider 'employees' weaker. Slaves, on the other hand, would be a different story.

I believe they were slaves based on everything I've read, including the bible. You may continue to try, but your lack of evidence combined with human history and your extreme bias towards the bible leaves me no choice but to discount your argument.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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24-09-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(23-09-2013 11:09 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 02:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I didn't state my standards are objective. If there is an omnipotent god he could provide such. But mine are subjective. I ask again why your subjective standards are "right".

For starters, because they can't ever be used to justify Genocide.

And yours? Why are they "right?" Because they make no sense, are internally contradictory, and can be used to justify the worst atrocities in human history? Or are they right for some other reason?

How is that not circular in nature? "I know genocide is wrong because my subjective standards can never justify genocide."

Also, I cannot answer your question. Not to accuse you but it's a straw man question for you to say, "Ah, you have no standards outside the Bible and the Bible is wrong 100% by fiat." First, I do have subjective ideas of my own, second, I interpret some things in the Bible differently than you or fellow Christians, third, you're not really concerned with what I think about morality, you're just being rhetorical. I think even the genocide of the Canaanites makes sense, but it makes less sense when you fly off the handle for suggesting it might without being allowed to enumerate my position. Saying I'm sick and twisted doesn't bring us closer to appreciating the other's position, either.
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24-09-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 08:47 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 08:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  From where did you derive your reasoning, logic and empathy? Were there any documents involved? Are they innate qualities in their total development or did you learn anything regarding ethics in, for example, a classroom, where writers from the past spoke through documents?

Relevance?

If you're going somewhere with this, please go there faster.

It's rather simple, and I'd already gotten there but you missed it. In the same breath you said I'm outmoded for believing in certain documents as authentic while saying all your ethics are shining and right. Did you derive any of your ethics from documents?
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24-09-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 09:04 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 08:44 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are strengthening my point. There are no rules about harming your boss because God's Law is favoring the weaker party here, the one not having indentured servants but the indentured servants themselves.

I'm glad I was able to strengthen your point. It certainly needs strengthening. So, to summarize your view:

1. There were no slaves and the bible does not condones slavery;

There were slaves in the ANE. The slaves of the Jews were nothing, nowhere, no how like black slaves in the Americas of recent centuries, they were analagous to tenants or landworkers in a feudal system. The same word for servant is used by subjects of kings, spouses, friends, etc. Mary was the Lord's servant. I am your obedient servant when I answer questions on the forum. I am not your slave.

Quote:2. You could walk away (interesting, as an indentured servant is under contract);

You could RUN away if the master was harsh (or even if he weren't). You were under contract - work for food - if you left, would there be room at the next farm(s) over?

Quote:3. The omission of rules forbidding 'servants' from harming their masters means the servants were weak, but still not slaves, and free to come and go;

Weaker economically, disadvantaged without land to call their own.

Quote:I'm curious, however, about the "indentured servant" term you've chosen to use. You informed me that people could walk away if they didn't like their job. That's a violation of contract.

I can walk away from my job, I can give two weeks' notice or violate my contract. There were rules and laws in the Bible (and outside the Bible) regarding work and wages and when to go. When to stay. Few people recognize consciously that the judges and town and city leaders, etc. had to apply mercy and justice where the law did not give a clear ruling.

Quote:I'm also curious about you saying the servants were weak. Without the 'employees,' the 'boss' has no labor with which to run business. They are equals who mutually benefit each other; they also physically outnumber their 'bosses.' I'm not sure why you consider 'employees' weaker. Slaves, on the other hand, would be a different story.

Weaker in position. It's not their house, it's not their land. I'm not a moderator. A mod may eject me off this forum but not vice versa. Likewise, I have free speech but if I say certain things about X 20 atheists flame me and (maybe) one Christian or two defends me. I'm "weaker" on this forum than an atheist, regardless of whether I'm more or less logical or more or less vile.

Quote:I believe they were slaves based on everything I've read, including the bible. You may continue to try, but your lack of evidence combined with human history and your extreme bias towards the bible leaves me no choice but to discount your argument.

Well, we can start with "The Bible laws re: slavery were far less harsh then the way slaves were treated in the ANE", but I guess you won't be reading this article anytime soon? I guess you won't even skim or scan it?

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html
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24-09-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  It's rather simple, and I'd already gotten there but you missed it. In the same breath you said I'm outmoded for believing in certain documents as authentic...

Did I ever say you were outmoded? Citation needed. I certainly judged you, but never in a temporal sense so far as I can recall.

Every extant document is authentic insofar as it exists. You believe demonstrably false things besides.

(24-09-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ... while saying all your ethics are shining and right.

I do happen to think I'm correct (ps: everyone thinks they're correct). How do I judge moral correctness? According to my own standards. You aren't going anywhere with this because it doesn't go anywhere.

(24-09-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Did you derive any of your ethics from documents?

I freely admit that my worldview has been influenced by reading things.

Again: this is irrelevant. Are you going somewhere with this? What exactly that admission is supposed to show, I have no idea.

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24-09-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There were slaves in the ANE. The slaves of the Jews were nothing, nowhere, no how like black slaves in the Americas of recent centuries, they were analagous to tenants or landworkers in a feudal system. The same word for servant is used by subjects of kings, spouses, friends, etc. Mary was the Lord's servant. I am your obedient servant when I answer questions on the forum. I am not your slave.

I haven't read your article yet, but I will. Beyond that article, do you have historical proof of your assertions? That the workers were not beaten? That they were free to go? That they were not viewed as lesser citizens? That they had a choice as to whether the entered servitude? Call them a servant or slave, it makes no difference. Their freedoms and rights define their place in society. I do not agree that they were treated better than the slaves of early America.

(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Weaker economically, disadvantaged without land to call their own.

Not physically or legally weaker? They could fight back if beaten? They could change 'employers' without recourse? I strongly disagree.

(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I can walk away from my job, I can give two weeks' notice or violate my contract. There were rules and laws in the Bible (and outside the Bible) regarding work and wages and when to go. When to stay. Few people recognize consciously that the judges and town and city leaders, etc. had to apply mercy and justice where the law did not give a clear ruling.

Outside the bible, do you have historical examples from that time period and region of persons being punished by law for beating their servants? Or of a servant being absolved of their contract because of a cruel master? I would be interested as it would contradict the rights of servants and slaves as I've seen through many different historical periods.

(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Weaker in position. It's not their house, it's not their land. I'm not a moderator. A mod may eject me off this forum but not vice versa. Likewise, I have free speech but if I say certain things about X 20 atheists flame me and (maybe) one Christian or two defends me. I'm "weaker" on this forum than an atheist, regardless of whether I'm more or less logical or more or less vile.

If you leave this forum, will you be physically punished? Will you be forced to return to the forum? Will you starve to death if you leave the forum? Do you have less rights than anyone else on this forum? I think that comparing an internet forum to servitude is a poor example.

(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, we can start with "The Bible laws re: slavery were far less harsh then the way slaves were treated in the ANE", but I guess you won't be reading this article anytime soon? I guess you won't even skim or scan it?

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

Sure, I'll read it. The problem is, I'll see the bias immediately. Christians are, by dogma, forced to uphold a premise regardless of contradictory evidence. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's not simply an apologetic defense using the usual arguments and biblical 'evidence' and instead uses outside historical references to defend its premise. Do you have any non-christian articles that support this article's statements? They would go a long way towards adding credibility to your premise.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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24-09-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 10:04 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 09:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There were slaves in the ANE. The slaves of the Jews were nothing, nowhere, no how like black slaves in the Americas of recent centuries, they were analagous to tenants or landworkers in a feudal system. The same word for servant is used by subjects of kings, spouses, friends, etc. Mary was the Lord's servant. I am your obedient servant when I answer questions on the forum. I am not your slave.

I haven't read your article yet, but I will. Beyond that article, do you have historical proof of your assertions? That the workers were not beaten? That they were free to go? That they were not viewed as lesser citizens? That they had a choice as to whether the entered servitude? Call them a servant or slave, it makes no difference. Their freedoms and rights define their place in society. I do not agree that they were treated better than the slaves of early America.

I quote:
Leviticus 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Leviticus 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Leviticus 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Emphasis added (as if I needed to!).

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24-09-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 10:03 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I do happen to think I'm correct (ps: everyone thinks they're correct).

How does that differ from the Christian worldview? Most Christians say they're not only subjective in viewpoint but almost wholly incorrect, that is, they recognize their biases.

But if you insist that everyone thinks they're correct, why does a Stalin or Pol Pot do what they do, do you think? I'm most curious...
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24-09-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
GN:

Quote: I haven't read your article yet, but I will. Beyond that article, do you have historical proof of your assertions? That the workers were not beaten? That they were free to go? That they were not viewed as lesser citizens? That they had a choice as to whether the entered servitude? Call them a servant or slave, it makes no difference. Their freedoms and rights define their place in society. I do not agree that they were treated better than the slaves of early America.

Mostly an argument from silence, to be frank, although the article has citations and biblical citations for you. For example, atheists complain about the “put even your own child to death” verses, yet Talmud on up records this was an admonition or warning from god that was never put into effect in all of Jewish history.

Quote: Not physically or legally weaker? They could fight back if beaten? They could change 'employers' without recourse? I strongly disagree.

The article has more.

Quote: Outside the bible, do you have historical examples from that time period and region of persons being punished by law for beating their servants? Or of a servant being absolved of their contract because of a cruel master? I would be interested as it would contradict the rights of servants and slaves as I've seen through many different historical periods.

I can only provide anecdotes from documents we’d call panegyric or even mythological. A beating in a town would be handled by judges or even local elders who just like today would only kick the matter upstairs to make headlines for bigger cases. My argumentation comes from this thought: What do the scriptures say and if we assume they were followed to the letter, do we have a healthy society comparable to our modern comforts and rights or a vicious society comparable to the groups in the ANE that were absolutely brutal to captives and war captives?

Quote: If you leave this forum, will you be physically punished? Will you be forced to return to the forum? Will you starve to death if you leave the forum? Do you have less rights than anyone else on this forum? I think that comparing an internet forum to servitude is a poor example.

If I leave my job, I have no guarantee of employment and therefore, food. If you left a post in the ancient world, you might starve. The forum analogy was softening my word “weaker” and not defending what slavery was. I stand behind ANE slavery for the Israelites as quite similar to having employment today or growing crops and paying taxes to a feudal landowner.

Quote: Sure, I'll read it. The problem is, I'll see the bias immediately. Christians are, by dogma, forced to uphold a premise regardless of contradictory evidence. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it's not simply an apologetic defense using the usual arguments and biblical 'evidence' and instead uses outside historical references to defend its premise. Do you have any non-christian articles that support this article's statements? They would go a long way towards adding credibility to your premise.

The article used outside references as well as scriptures. Thanks.
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24-09-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
Even if you win the battle in justifying the slavery of the times not being like modern times, which you won't, you will lose the war of showing your god is just, loving or merciful to humanity. If your god was worth ten cents, one of the ten commandments would have read something like:

You shall not own people as property because they are made in the image and likeness of god. Slavery is an abomination to your lord.

Instead, you have - If you beat a slave nearly to death, you will not be punished, for they are your property.

EPIC FAIL. I don't need a doctorate in history to read the bible, and any god who would require one and instead leave such a convoluted mess that was easily and correctly interpreted to support the worst treatment of humanity for thousands of years needs a good lawyer to get us to believe in his justice, love or mercy. Just because you are willing to do mental gymnastics to support your ridiculous faith doesn't mean that it is reasonable to make the interpretation to do so or burn forever. EPIC FAIL.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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