Genocide in the Bible
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24-09-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 09:04 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 11:09 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  For starters, because they can't ever be used to justify Genocide.

And yours? Why are they "right?" Because they make no sense, are internally contradictory, and can be used to justify the worst atrocities in human history? Or are they right for some other reason?

How is that not circular in nature? "I know genocide is wrong because my subjective standards can never justify genocide."

Also, I cannot answer your question. Not to accuse you but it's a straw man question for you to say, "Ah, you have no standards outside the Bible and the Bible is wrong 100% by fiat." First, I do have subjective ideas of my own, second, I interpret some things in the Bible differently than you or fellow Christians, third, you're not really concerned with what I think about morality, you're just being rhetorical. I think even the genocide of the Canaanites makes sense, but it makes less sense when you fly off the handle for suggesting it might without being allowed to enumerate my position. Saying I'm sick and twisted doesn't bring us closer to appreciating the other's position, either.

I know Genocide is wrong because I use my faculties of empathy, reason and understanding the feelings of others what what they want (the Golden Rule in a sense). On your side, you know Genocide is sometimes morally right based on God's will as expressed in the Bible. I think we've found a good basis to move forward.

Since Exodus 22:18 commands believers to "not suffer a witch to live," presumably you agree that if they are right that these people are in FACT witches, the actions of the following people killing the witches are by definition moral, correct?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/08/...index.html

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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24-09-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 10:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 10:04 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I haven't read your article yet, but I will. Beyond that article, do you have historical proof of your assertions? That the workers were not beaten? That they were free to go? That they were not viewed as lesser citizens? That they had a choice as to whether the entered servitude? Call them a servant or slave, it makes no difference. Their freedoms and rights define their place in society. I do not agree that they were treated better than the slaves of early America.

I quote:
Leviticus 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Leviticus 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Leviticus 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Emphasis added (as if I needed to!).

That's the chapter on the Sabbath year of redemption. Did you read the verses immediately following?
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24-09-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 01:05 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  Even if you win the battle in justifying the slavery of the times not being like modern times, which you won't, you will lose the war of showing your god is just, loving or merciful to humanity. If your god was worth ten cents, one of the ten commandments would have read something like:

You shall not own people as property because they are made in the image and likeness of god. Slavery is an abomination to your lord.

Instead, you have - If you beat a slave nearly to death, you will not be punished, for they are your property.

EPIC FAIL. I don't need a doctorate in history to read the bible, and any god who would require one and instead leave such a convoluted mess that was easily and correctly interpreted to support the worst treatment of humanity for thousands of years needs a good lawyer to get us to believe in his justice, love or mercy. Just because you are willing to do mental gymnastics to support your ridiculous faith doesn't mean that it is reasonable to make the interpretation to do so or burn forever. EPIC FAIL.

Skippy, since you're a "newbie", let me assist you. You can say pretty much everything you said without the hyperbole and "epic fail!" childish remarks.

*The Bible specifically prohibits kidnapping (how African slaves were acquired) by DEATH

*The Bible specifically releases all indentured servants at jubilees and etc.

*The Bible specifically states how the employer treats the employee (landowner/tenant) etc.

*Etc.

In fact, other than snipping a few verses off Google the way many atheists do, I've read the Law many times in its entirety. I know a friend who read Leviticus and realized what an impossibly difficult standard of lovingkindness and righteousness it set and cried out to Jesus to save her, and she was born again...

But if you're overall stating the Bible is not a loving book, or that the Bible wasn't remarkable in its depictions of love and mercy, whether we look at the modern cruel world or the ancient crueler world, read it again.
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24-09-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 11:56 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  How does that differ from the Christian worldview? Most Christians say they're not only subjective in viewpoint but almost wholly incorrect, that is, they recognize their biases.

"Most Christians say they're subjective", eh?

Citation needed. Most of them seem to think God shares their opinion, whatever those opinions may be.

(24-09-2013 11:56 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But if you insist that everyone thinks they're correct, why does a Stalin or Pol Pot do what they do, do you think? I'm most curious...

It's adorable that you think that remark is in any way relevant.

The question answers itself. If people think they're correct (this was my premise; are you seriously trying to deny it? to assert that most people, in fact, consistently and knowingly act in ways they consider 'wrong'?) then their acts are based on those beliefs. Stalin did what he thought was good for Stalin. You can't possibly be so stupid as to be genuinely stumped here.

I'm really, really curious as to what inane an irrelevant conclusion you think you're building to. Please don't make me keep holding my breath.


(24-09-2013 01:51 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  That's the chapter on the Sabbath year of redemption. Did you read the verses immediately following?

That refers only to fellow Israelites ("thy brother"). Did you read it?

Or, allowing it to be universal: the verses describing limitations on slavery immediately follow on from verses describing slavery for ever. So what's up with that, then?

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24-09-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But if you're overall stating the Bible is not a loving book, or that the Bible wasn't remarkable in its depictions of love and mercy, whether we look at the modern cruel world or the ancient crueler world, read it again.

Skippy, mark this comment as why you can never sway the mind of a fundamentalist. You are being told that if the bible does not make sense, you are the problem. P.J. will never sway from the presumption that the bible is perfect, regardless of any science or evidence presented to the contrary. That's not an insult; it's a simple fact. On top of this, most of his information comes from christian apologist sources and not scientific, non-denominational sources.

I am currently reading a rather lengthy paper on slavery written by an apologist, recommended by PJ. The premise of the paper is (so far) that 'slavery' as we define it today was actually 'not that bad' back in the day and may even be a misuse of the term. YGTBFKM. The author makes comments such as the following:

"...even though children/family could be bought and sold, they were never actually referred to as 'slaves'--the property aspect (for such transactions) did NOT define explicitly the notion of 'slavery'..."

This is the level of mental gymnastics required to maintain faith. Even though people could be bought and sold (he tries, weakly, to argue that the people being sold had to give their consent, although he admits in a rare piece of honesty that infants probably were unable to consent to being sold!), it's not... technically... called slavery.

When was the last time, Skippy, that you owned a human being? Not 'adopted', 'raised', etc. Owned. As in 'property.' But that's not slavery, right?

Sorry, back to the original topic now.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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24-09-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 01:05 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  SNIP

Skippy, since you're a "newbie", let me assist you. You can say pretty much everything you said without the hyperbole and "epic fail!" childish remarks.

*The Bible specifically prohibits kidnapping (how African slaves were acquired) by DEATH

*The Bible specifically releases all indentured servants at jubilees and etc.

*The Bible specifically states how the employer treats the employee (landowner/tenant) etc.

*Etc.

SNIP

But if you're overall stating the Bible is not a loving book, or that the Bible wasn't remarkable in its depictions of love and mercy, whether we look at the modern cruel world or the ancient crueler world, read it again.

Your ideas are dangerous and you intentionally misuse your bible knowledge and lie to defend them. I'll take being childish any day. But thanks for the recommendation, I'll file it in the "don't give two shits" cabinet.

To your points, um, Bullshit!

Quote: *The Bible specifically prohibits kidnapping (how African slaves were acquired) by DEATH

Applies to Israelites only. We know this by the text and also by the fact that the Israelites kidnapped the victims of their wars that they did not kill. No soldiers were punished with death, this was Standard Operating Procedure. So, um, bullshit. (is it childish to call bullshit when you know you are lying?).

Quote:*The Bible specifically releases all indentured servants at jubilees and etc.

Applies to Israelites only. Non-Isrealite slaves serve forever. See Leviticus 25. But you know that already and are playing a game here, because you are willing to deceive to make your points that the Bible isn't so bad. You have been doing this for a while so you've probably been referred here 15 times already in your time online? Knowingly ignoring the truth that you know to make a point is lying - do you have to ask forgiveness after every time you come online?

Quote:*The Bible specifically states how the employer treats the employee (landowner/tenant) etc.

Sure does, and also addresses how you treat slaves. If they don't die in few days, you are good. You could cause traumatic brain injury, you could break their arms or legs, you could whip them into a coma, but as long as they don't die, you are good. Ever seen a good slave whipping before - like in Roots? It's pretty hard to kill someone with a whipping, but man you can make them hurt.

But you know this already, and you are here to lie to support your god. This is nefarious. I see why ole' bucky doesn't even try to address your points anymore, he's been here before and knows you are lying when you claim ignorance to what the bible says. You just make people prove it over and over and over and continue to claim ignorance and then circle back to make the same points again and again.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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24-09-2013, 05:59 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(24-09-2013 03:13 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 01:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But if you're overall stating the Bible is not a loving book, or that the Bible wasn't remarkable in its depictions of love and mercy, whether we look at the modern cruel world or the ancient crueler world, read it again.

SNIP

This is the level of mental gymnastics required to maintain faith. Even though people could be bought and sold (he tries, weakly, to argue that the people being sold had to give their consent, although he admits in a rare piece of honesty that infants probably were unable to consent to being sold!), it's not... technically... called slavery.

When was the last time, Skippy, that you owned a human being? Not 'adopted', 'raised', etc. Owned. As in 'property.' But that's not slavery, right?
SNIP

I skimmed it and extrapolated the basic points, which were laughable. I threw up a little bit in my mouth and decided to call it.

Somewhere in there he says 'slaves weren't [i]really[i] property', so I quote Leviticus that says ... "since they are your property." At that point, if you are willing to directly contradict the clear statement in your own bible to make your point about how your bible is not so bad, ahem, yeah, pound sand. Maybe I should think about the context? Hahahaha.

I'm looking forward to your summary on the great points made by the quoted treatise. Should be entertaining.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

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25-09-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
All,

I'm cutting to the chase here:

1) Liberal scholars believe the HB was written circa 300 BC and that the Exodus and the Israelite conquest of Canaan are myths. Therefore, you are complaining about genocide and slavery that never occured.

2) Bible believers say the writing was earlier and there was a genocide and slavery. They also finished reading the rest of the HB to see that something like 200 times in it, god warned the Israelites that syncretism and inter-marriage would lead to death for the Israelites, diaspora and persecution. These pledges/prophecies came to pass!

Pick one.
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25-09-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(25-09-2013 01:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  All,

I'm cutting to the chase here:

1) Liberal scholars believe the HB was written circa 300 BC and that the Exodus and the Israelite conquest of Canaan are myths. Therefore, you are complaining about genocide and slavery that never occured.

2) Bible believers say the writing was earlier and there was a genocide and slavery. They also finished reading the rest of the HB to see that something like 200 times in it, god warned the Israelites that syncretism and inter-marriage would lead to death for the Israelites, diaspora and persecution. These pledges/prophecies came to pass!

Pick one.

3) The entire first 5 books of the Bible are mythological and bear no relationship to the actual events. They were edited and rearranged by priests looking to legitimise the southern kingdom of Judah after the fall of the northern Kingdom.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-09-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(25-09-2013 01:15 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-09-2013 01:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  All,

I'm cutting to the chase here:

1) Liberal scholars believe the HB was written circa 300 BC and that the Exodus and the Israelite conquest of Canaan are myths. Therefore, you are complaining about genocide and slavery that never occured.

2) Bible believers say the writing was earlier and there was a genocide and slavery. They also finished reading the rest of the HB to see that something like 200 times in it, god warned the Israelites that syncretism and inter-marriage would lead to death for the Israelites, diaspora and persecution. These pledges/prophecies came to pass!

Pick one.

3) The entire first 5 books of the Bible are mythological and bear no relationship to the actual events. They were edited and rearranged by priests looking to legitimise the southern kingdom of Judah after the fall of the northern Kingdom.

That.

And, you know. That the salient point isn't whether the events occurred, it's that they're endorsed.

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