Genocide in the Bible
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-08-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
Why is God exempt from our morality? Is it our lack of knowledge and his abundance of knowledge, or something else? Don't christians espouse an "objective" morality that is right at all times and all places? But NOT for God? Why would a morality be different for God than for man, ever?

AND, if [imaginary] God needed some people dead, why does he use another warring tribe to kill them? Why not just ZAP them? Hmmmmmmm. Or is it that these are just people attributing THEIR actions to [imaginary] God? Occam's razor would imply the later to be the far superior answer. What is more likely - that [imaginary] God could not defeat the "Chariots of Iron" or that the israelites could not defeat the chariots of iron and they simply viewed [imaginary] God and themselves as synonymous? Sure would make a much better explanation why a loving God has to kill so much...... don't you think?

Of course we know these writings are all truisms - if we lose the war, God is mad at us! If we win the war, God is happy with us! The fact of the happiness or madness is not actually known - its simply interpreted from whether they win or not. Isn't it possible that behind the scenes, the Israelite generals of the day were saying to their wives - what a pain in the ass, my men work twice as hard, we build all this new equipment this year and totally kick ass, and the priest give all the credit to Yahweh! What a joke.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Skippy538's post
29-08-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Draw a Venn diagram. Intersect “what you want to do (free will)” with “who you are (your nature)”. God’s circles match yours very closely.
He 1) does whatever he wants 2) wants to do things that are good.

Agree with #1. Disagree with #2. Your god of the bible does not do good things.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But if I accept your premise instead, than a god could cause suffering and be outside your moral turpitude at killing children, right?

God may do whatever god pleases. My issue is with calling it 'loving and just.' I will not relent on this point.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Trust Jesus and be saved instead.

Saved from... Jesus. Because Jesus is god, and it's god who's threatening to condemn me. You do see the tyranny there, yes?

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now who’s guilty of the presentism BB is always going on about? Why, it’s the atheists. Example: Would you have a long talk with your wife if she came back exhausted from flying the Enola Gay and ushering in VJ-Day? If she said, “I’m horrified and sickened that I was ordered by my government to drop that terrible bomb, but at least the war’s over,” and then you’d start chastising her…?

You see what you did there? You judged that anyone who ever destroys a city is wrong. What if a city had 10,000 nukes it was to launch and you launching one would melt the armament and save the world? “Only Sith speak in absolutes.”

I refuse to believe you don't see the meaning in my example. Here you present a 10,000 nuke enemy. The bible presents women and children who, through guilt by association, must be slaughtered. No nukes. Were children vicious enemies back then? Did the women turn into werewolves? There is just war, and then there is pure murder.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Read your paragraph again above. Then ask yourself, should I be a Christian?

I can't. God doesn't fit with reality. I can't listen to this promise of an afterlife from a Jewish god when the Jews themselves didn't believe in it. I cannot worship a deity that demands the death of entire races, or believe in a book with talking donkeys and men living inside fish. I can't believe a man stuffed every life form in a boat and survived a global flood. I mean, come on.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And who are you and I to say the lion doesn’t know any BETTER? How do you know what is better regarding pain and suffering?

Is there evidence that lions know better? I will absolutely change my viewpoint if there is.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I tossed in this week that if you take away a masochist’s pain, they’re unhappy. Are all masochists “ill”? What do you think?

That's a tough/fun question. Not sure I could even answer it. Also pretty sure it doesn't prove or disprove the existence of a loving god, so it's not relevant.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Regardless, on what basis did you arrive at the conclusions above? For example, I recently interacted with a friend who died following a long illness. She spoke in churches about the meaningfulness of suffering and the reasons for it and so on. Why are you judging her choices, again with an absolute? I would be reluctant to say “broken bone good, terminal illness bad”.

I don't reveal details of my personal life on the internet, but suffice it to say I can refer you to some terminally ill people who would gladly trade their illness for health. Right now. They would kick the hospital bed over, unplug the IV, and start living their lives like the rest of us do. They are not enjoying their suffering. Perhaps your friend wouldn't have accepted the option to be healthy. She is only one example. I have some other examples in direct contrast to her.

Why do you take my comments and then frame them as if I've just personally attacked someone you care about? Trying to invoke emotion into this argument isn't going to help your cause.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If “I don’t know about this pain” is an honest response, why does every freethinker agree god (if he exists) did something wrong by using pain in this world? That makes no sense.

BECAUSE GOD DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE SUFFERING.

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  All you need to do now is prove ALL suffering is bad, and you’re set. You can do it from a naturalist’s perspective or a hypothetical spiritual perspective/god perspective. I give you free reign there.

If you can get god to slide my phone across my desk, right now, then god exists, otherwise he doesn't. Certainly the creator of the universe can move a few ounces of telephone. Right? I'm waiting...

What you've done is given me an impossible task, and then stated that if I complete said task, I win, and if I can't, you're premise is correct. Where, exactly, is it stated that if ALL suffering is not bad, then god is loving? That's your own personal rationalization that you've decided to project.

My argument will not change. God did not have to create suffering. God did anyway. Suffering, therefore, was created simply for the purpose of suffering. That is not loving.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes guitar_nut's post
29-08-2013, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2013 06:16 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(27-08-2013 01:57 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let’s see…

**

“If Noah is true, there was genocide”. Of course, that’s skipping over the… wait for it… context. People were more degenerate then than even now and “did whatever they wanted”. Oh yes, and the REAL context of “Everyone in the planet Earth might die of natural causes [like floods]!”

YOU WIN. EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED AND DIES OF NATURAL CAUSES MUST DIE OF A GOD-ORDAINED GENOCIDE. Brilliant!

Congratulations to our Noah poster on winning PJ’s “Dumbest post of the week award”.

**

The Deuteronomy 28 stuff IS scary. If I had a big pair, I’d tell you that the Holocaust and other sufferings of the Jewish people in Diaspora come right here in Deut 28… for national rejection of Her Messiah, but I don’t… so I won’t.

Of course, Deut 29 promises salvation and blessing, too, and not everyone bites it in Deut 28, so this poster wins my “Good reader award”.

**

Quote: I'd like to know what was so fucking "just" about the purported Israelite blitzkrieg on Canaan. Even the way the morons tell the story, the Canaanites were sitting there minding their own fucking business and these murdering savages came pouring out of the desert to kill them.

Wins the “so so out-of-context award.”

1. There was advance knowledge of the Canaanites (about 40 years’ worth) that the Jews were god’s people, coming out of Egypt with smoke and wonders, and were killing everyone, and even Balak gave them four blessings when Baalam cursed them.

2. The Canaanites were doing some bad stuff. ABRAHAM was told they were the worst kind of pagans and then god gave them 400 YEARS to repent.

3. It’s not a genocide when the people you “blitzkrieg” have giants, fortified cities, huge armies, mercenaries they pay from other lands, and iron chariots. The Jews have left Egypt WITHOUT ANY WEAPONS in their possession unless they picked some up at a… wait for it… FLOOD SALE. The Jews were SO SCARED OF ATTACKING THE PEOPLES WITH THEIR “BLITZKRIEGING ARMIES” they disobeyed god and wandered forty years!

4. You also win the “this is not genocide award”.

Congratulations on winning the "justifying a genocide award!" I believe all of mankind will look upon you favorably throughout history.

Context, context, context... What bothers me is this is such a ridiculously poor defense by believers. God creates a book which is supposed to be taken literally by mankind but of course fills it with flaws, fantasies, contradictions and crimes against humanity. Of course he also says he loves us when he continues to systematically murder us and you try to say they are more degenerate than they are now? How possibly? What could they have done to deserve eradication of not only the adults but the children and toddlers to the infants and newborns who somehow had to be killed in such a savage way by a deity? Humans can't possibly do whatever they wanted and if you truly believe the flood happened you are very delusional because of the lack of water on this planet(Including the poles and ice that cover the planet) and nearly no chance of surviving unless you use the excuse of magic.





Now I want to address this point. You say people die of natural causes and that is true but God brought this upon the people. He apparently did this with his power to kill all this life and not just human life but plants and animals included!

I am glad you conceded already though and hope you continue to look into the facts. If your God doesn't control nature like you are implying then he isn't all powerful.

Also, I read a later post and you said babies are innocent and your deity still apparently killed them? Do you not see the problem here? God is just so because he is just he kills babies.

[Image: funny-baby-pictures-01.jpg]

The ultimate of evil.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ShirubaDangan's post
29-08-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Granted. I’ll agree with you. So please allow me to rephrase. The whole issue of this entire thread lies in the fact that it’s not genocide if it’s a deserved capital punishment OR a just war, if those two things can be allowed into the discussion. And those are loaded terms.

You are saying it is not genocide if it is justified. That has not been agreed upon.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  They had to work at it because a war is not a genocide and a genocide is not a war. The Allies bombed civilian targets in WW II as well as military targets. Was this bombing a genocide? Not according to Wikipedia. We were working to sap the Axis of strength and will to fight rather than killing Axis civilians BECAUSE they were ethnic Germans or Japanese.

Try as you might to blur the lines, there is a difference between targeting civilian populations in order to bring about a surrender and targeting civilian populations in lieu of ever obtaining a surrender.

As we all know, once the Allied armies reached Germany, they crushed the bodies of women and children and brought home the virgins as weregild, and today trans-Rhenish France is as integral to the republic as Anjou. Wait, what?

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In the same vein, the wars for Canann lasted an initial 40 years under Joshua and then continued for centuries after. And the Jews killed Canaanites because they were wicked, a sort of capital punishment, and not because they had racial hatred for their ANE cousins. I know you see the difference.

So, it's not genocide if they deserve it? I have the weirdest déjà vu typing that...

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Capital punishment isn’t murder and murder isn’t capital punishment. And god knowing via foreknowledge about the horrors of syncretism and the deservedness of capital punishment than killing people (through the agency of the Israelites) and taking the irredeemably wicked adults to Hell and the innocent children to Heaven is appropriate IMHO. If you want to call it genocide and use it as your absolute, final moral standard for rejecting Christianity you have other issues you are ignoring IMHO.

Wait, people can be irredeemably wicked now? That's not what I'm led to believe that Jesus guy said...

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But what’s really bothering you and prompted this thread is that the children died. Here comes Godwin but it’s really needed this time:

If I went back in time to stop Hitler, I wouldn't kill him. I'd just let him know that his name would be used for centuries as a lazy touchstone by those without actual arguments to make.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The whole context of the “Does foreknowledge of Hitler’s actions justify using a time machine to kill the infant Hitler?” discussion is that people have great difficulty making a decision here (most people) because they don’t have foreknowledge of every action, every choice, every possibility for Hitler’s redemption or every ramification (like there being a leader worse than Hitler to fill the gap in the same time frame). In other words, people know this question means they’re playing god.

No, it means they're making a moral decision. It's "playing God" only if your morality is the degenerate cowardice of a willing slave.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Guess what? The issue here isn’t Jewish genocide of Canaanites. It’s that god does get to play god and told the Jews to kill the Canaanites. I also acknowledge that god created the family structure, government, self-defense, and capital punishment. He really does get to say, “Kill the infant Hitler”.

This is all sounding so familiar...




(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your issue isn’t moral outrage over genocide, something that’s actually indefensible if you are a Social Darwinist. Your issue is (surprise!) religious fanaticism.

wut?

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand. I sometimes have trouble employing italics on this forum myself and must resort to ALL CAPS. Of course, most people take it for shouting. Sorry I didn’t feel your vibe before.

Okay, cool. I tend to use it to try to convey a different tone, not a louder one - but obviously via text alone there's plenty of room for ambiguity! As the preceding sentence attests I slip into italics fairly often; I find bolded text far more 'loud' than infrequent use of caps, but that's just me. Good to have that cleared up.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  See above. I just all but admitted it!

Yes. And you refrain from that final step... why?

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, we’re almost there. If you want to also consider whether SOME elements of the “genocide” included just war, the opportunity for those they opposed to repent of great sin, the hearing of the Canaanites about the cataclysms that befell the Egyptians (my “resistance is futile” so why fight argument), etc.

"Just war" is defined as a war which 'must' be won for moral reasons. That is already open to wide interpretation. It does not extend to utterly annihilating the defeated peoples, and never has.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Consider Islam. Now those jihads aren’t justified. But they (usually) don’t kill everyone because you can become a Muslim and not die. That’s why scholars are reluctant to call certain “efforts” of the Muslims genocide.

They're as justifiable to Muslims as the Hebrews' purported actions are to Jews (and Christians by extension). Exactly as justifiable.

(29-08-2013 10:26 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When you consider how abysmally the Jews failed to kill all the Canaanites it wasn’t genocide in the dictionary sense. But why quibble with words?

When you consider how the Nazis failed to kill all the Jews it wasn't genocide in the dictionary sense. But why quibble with words?

OUT-GODWINNED, son!

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like cjlr's post
29-08-2013, 05:26 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Draw a Venn diagram. Intersect “what you want to do (free will)” with “who you are (your nature)”. God’s circles match yours very closely.
He 1) does whatever he wants 2) wants to do things that are good.
I witness Jesus of my free will. I’m not forced to do so. I do something I want to do that is also the right thing to do.

Doesn't it surprise you sometimes that god's circles match so closely to your own... and that this is true for other people when they look at god also... even though your circles don't match theirs...? Could it be that for some of these people the god they worship is one they've constructed in their own minds rather than an actual god? If so, how can we go about finding whose picture of God is correct and whose is incorrect?

(29-08-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Pick one. Then at least, if you go to the old atheist “screw him, I hate him for killing kids, there’s never a good reason” then I KNOW that you KNOW that if he condemns you, you KNOW you recognized he was bigger than you (outside your tiny moral box). WOW, that sucks. Trust Jesus and be saved instead.

Which raises another old question: How did you decide that God was the good one and Satan was the evil one? What moral reasoning did you apply?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Hafnof's post
29-08-2013, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2013 07:25 PM by Skippy538.)
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(29-08-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Sorry work is insane right now but I'm licking my chops at the meat and potatoes of the core arguments here. I will be back late Friday, I am slammed.
Hurry! Because the pattern here is to 1) send me an ill-constructed syllogism 2) have me demolish it 3) send me the SAME argument again and ask “why aren’t you responding?” 4) get tired of dealing with important issues and freethinkers move to random attacks on theists on other threads
 

Wow, and your last post to me was warning me of the dangers of being Prideful. You might, er, take the plank, er, out of your eye before ye..... ahem, well I'm sure you know it.

Don't blame me because you are getting owned by people who aren't me. That's just the breaks. I'm no super philosopher or anything, just a guy, you know, with a day job and all.

So to recap - you said there was "Never" a context in which you could call [imaginary] God's actions genocide, and then what 6 days later you finally admitted it was in fact genocide, EXCEPT that we had to take into account "CONTEXT." After I destroyed the shitty little "CONTEXT" that you brought up first, (OH MY THEY WERE SO SCARED) - your great retort was????? Crickets. You were wrong, you barely owned it, and now you're trying the old "RATIONALIZATION" thing, where you justify why its NOT SO BAD. But somewhere I had created a bad syllogism and because of that I lost by claiming that [imaginary] God committed GENOCIDE and is an immoral fuck because of it? Huh?

By the way, Genocide is so bad and your only retort is CONTEXT? God committed Genocide, and no, its NEVER, EVER OK to kill women and children who are unarmed and not part of the battle. The fact you would justify such a thing speaks VOLUMES about your character. No real man would ever stand there and kill women and children because anyone fucking commanded it. God did, and that makes him a real fuckstick.

I don't have to put SHIT in context, that's your job, to try to justify the UNCONSCIONABLE. There is NO CONTEXT when killing women and children is ever ok. Just because you say "yes it is, sometimes when God does it its ok" ever make it ok, ever.

Oh, and on the above....

Drone strikes that kill noncombatants are wrong, period.
The A bomb was wrong, period.
Quarantine is not killing anyone.
You're a warring tribe in the middle of nowhere and you want to justify your actions to maintain your group cohesiveness and overcome feelings of massive guilt so you invent a story of having the approval of a "God of War" that becomes something a little bigger than you intended but it does help to alleviate the guilt and control the masses.

Wow - well I guess my moral compass is intact, what a miracle!

Why was God so into instructing people to kill everyone in the old days, and now the message seems so much different? Love and sacrifice for you and all this laying down his life shit? Oh, right, the PEOPLE changed, therefore god's message changed. Coincidence? No, people got tired of the old message, wanted a new one. It's still fucked up, but at least no one thinks they can [legally] kill someone in their town for not believing the right things. (Maybe he changed his mind about killing people?). Nah, that doesn't make any sense. Now we kill people over land and money, which was the same reason they did it back then, but they just came up with some better reasons to justify their behaviors. They were warring tribes find an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway, its so obvious. Why would you fight the fact that it makes so much more sense when you read it this way instead of doing all these intellectual gymnastics, that do or at least should cause you pause in a moral sense? Right, because you HAVE to to keep your faith. Bummer for you.

You go ahead and critique my Syllogisms all day long. I'm more concerned with keeping the whole picture, and my values, in CONTEXT. Of course you want to argue the logic side and keep emotion out of it because its a pretty sensitive issue, this killing women and children in cold blood stuff.

God commanded Genocide against peoples because of their beliefs, and you think its A-OK. That's fucked. Your assertion that there cannot be anything in the bible that could be "properly" characterized as Genocide has been destroyed on this post, but hey, what the hell, knock yourself out champ, whatever gets you through.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Skippy538's post
29-08-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
(29-08-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote: Sorry work is insane right now but I'm licking my chops at the meat and potatoes of the core arguments here. I will be back late Friday, I am slammed.
Hurry! Because the pattern here is to 1) send me an ill-constructed syllogism 2) have me demolish it 3) send me the SAME argument again and ask “why aren’t you responding?” 4) get tired of dealing with important issues and freethinkers move to random attacks on theists on other threads
 

1. What was the syllogism I botched? Happy to correct it, haven't done these in a long time.

2. Please kindly show me what argument you destroyed of mine, and I'll show you how you got owned on this thread. Should we keep the virgins for ourselves to rape and plunder? Why not, its not like we have a morality outside of our own shitty little tribe right?

3. Right, you ran away from this argument forever, pretended to not read the bible verse I quoted you, then asked for it again even though it was pasted in the thread itself, and then ignored it some more - and I asked for a response like 4 times. Now you are getting properly owned, only because I started a special thread just so you couldn't say we were off topic, but cheers on your syllogism critique. Hopefully that reduces the blow of the Old Testament coming out your ears with the blood of innocents. Don't even start with me on people deserving death because of sin - you completely ran away from what it takes to go to hell for a million years, and you know the answer - look lustfully at a women one time. A victimless crime, and I DESERVE death and eternal hell for a completely natural urge? You are on crack if you say yes, you are LYING if you say no. So, you ignore it. Just what I would expect from a christian, to ignore that which he does not want to admit.

4. You defending the Messiah? Poor guy needs to come out, and he wants someone to drag him. Calls 'em like I see 'em. I can't explain the fascination with the insanity, but it IS fascinating just the same. More fun than watching you run away from the facts of a heartless god who is somehow, mysteriously now full of "LOVE." Talk about Bi-Polar, God's got some issues baby!

I think you're feeling a bit bitter at me for directing a thread in your direction that so patently challenges your beliefs, but that's ok. Bitter away. A little suffering is good for you, just not ALS!

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
Quote: Why is God exempt from our morality? Is it our lack of knowledge and his abundance of knowledge, or something else? Don't christians espouse an "objective" morality that is right at all times and all places? But NOT for God? Why would a morality be different for God than for man, ever?

Glad you asked. I didn’t say god is exempt from morality, though the superior being who set up the morality and the rules for us is surely exempt from our morality. And he is definitely exempt from atheist morality and moral codes, which in contradiction to his laws including “love god absolutely and supremely”!

My point was that even though he need not subject himself, he did. He died under the law to free us. He loves us.

Quote:AND, if [imaginary] God needed some people dead, why does he use another warring tribe to kill them? Why not just ZAP them? Hmmmmmmm. Or is it that these are just people attributing THEIR actions to [imaginary] God? Occam's razor would imply the later to be the far superior answer. What is more likely - that [imaginary] God could not defeat the "Chariots of Iron" or that the israelites could not defeat the chariots of iron and they simply viewed [imaginary] God and themselves as synonymous? Sure would make a much better explanation why a loving God has to kill so much...... don't you think?

You are correct. Unless, of course, god is hidden from us because of our rebellion and god’s choice. Then no lasers would come out of the sky, right?

Quote:Of course we know these writings are all truisms - if we lose the war, God is mad at us! If we win the war, God is happy with us! The fact of the happiness or madness is not actually known - its simply interpreted from whether they win or not. Isn't it possible that behind the scenes, the Israelite generals of the day were saying to their wives - what a pain in the ass, my men work twice as hard, we build all this new equipment this year and totally kick ass, and the priest give all the credit to Yahweh! What a joke.

Actually it goes beyond that. When you try to kill the Jewish people for example, your entire empire will eventually crumble. It’s not just who wins but who does the right thing who wins, etc.

GREAT points. I really liked your thoughts here.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
Quote: Agree with #1. Disagree with #2. Your god of the bible does not do good things.

Okay. Are you saying that in your reading of the entire Bible, god never did one good thing ever? Is that what you found in what Jesus did for people via healings, etc?

Quote: God may do whatever god pleases. My issue is with calling it 'loving and just.' I will not relent on this point.

I know. That’s why I am excited to discuss suffering with you. You are really thinking about the issues and should you conclude that suffering has meaning and purpose, and in some cases can be a definite positive, it will change your worldview, forever.

Quote: Saved from... Jesus. Because Jesus is god, and it's god who's threatening to condemn me. You do see the tyranny there, yes?

I see the irony there. I try to be very specific on these things. You were close. It’s saved from Hell, and Jesus will no longer send me there.

Why is Jesus different than a righteous dad or mom? I screwed up, and my dad’s gonna punish me, and I deserve it. Than dad comes home, and loves you, and spares you dad’s own anger! IT’S THE SAME THING, WHICH IS HOW I KNOW ATHEIST ISSUES ARE USUALLY REALLY PEOPLE ISSUES, NOT GOD CONCEPT ISSUES.

Also, Jesus dies and suffers the torments of Hell and death on the cross? Isn’t that enough?

Quote: I refuse to believe you don't see the meaning in my example. Here you present a 10,000 nuke enemy. The bible presents women and children who, through guilt by association, must be slaughtered. No nukes. Were children vicious enemies back then? Did the women turn into werewolves? There is just war, and then there is pure murder.

Okay, if you agree in a just war concept, are you saying the Bible presented the conquest of Canaan as a holy war, a genocide or a just war?

Quote: I can't. God doesn't fit with reality. I can't listen to this promise of an afterlife from a Jewish god when the Jews themselves didn't believe in it. I cannot worship a deity that demands the death of entire races, or believe in a book with talking donkeys and men living inside fish. I can't believe a man stuffed every life form in a boat and survived a global flood. I mean, come on.

We’re a tad off the subject, but most of the early converts (over 100,000) to Christianity were… Jews. I am aware of several people in the last 200 years who were swallowed by fish, and the whale that swallowed Jonah was likely larger. Also, Jonah is a type of Christ who dies, is buried and resurrects.

It’s hard to believe in talking donkeys, yet you and I know both Christians and atheists who are asses and talk out of their asses. Smile I’ll save Noah for another time. Let’s just say it was a big boat that only needed one species of dog and one of cats aboard, and no sea life in it.

Further, I’d state categorically so we’re clear—I’ve never met a non-Christian who believed in a virgin birth or other miracle. I’d expect only those who’ve trusted in Christ to believe.

Quote:
Is there evidence that lions know better? I will absolutely change my viewpoint if there is.

There’s no evidence that they know better and no evidence either that they know better but are hiding it from us, sort of like the dolphins who say, “So long and thanks for all the fish.”

But if they don’t know better, that implies that ALL of man’s morals are subjective, not objective, morals. Which further implies that we cannot accuse god of causing suffering since suffering is a made-up concept.

Or try this one, “If atheists believe most people are deluded, because they believe in god, how come they don’t also believe most people are deluded who think suffering is real or bad?”

After all, Buddhists teach suffering is an illusion!

Quote: That's a tough/fun question. Not sure I could even answer it. Also pretty sure it doesn't prove or disprove the existence of a loving god, so it's not relevant.

It is relevant. If a masochist enjoys pain then his version of a loving god causes him more pain!

Quote: I don't reveal details of my personal life on the internet, but suffice it to say I can refer you to some terminally ill people who would gladly trade their illness for health. Right now. They would kick the hospital bed over, unplug the IV, and start living their lives like the rest of us do. They are not enjoying their suffering. Perhaps your friend wouldn't have accepted the option to be healthy. She is only one example. I have some other examples in direct contrast to her.

Why do you take my comments and then frame them as if I've just personally attacked someone you care about? Trying to invoke emotion into this argument isn't going to help your cause.

Huh? I know people like that, of course. But why does it seem that all atheists have no one they’ve ever met who praised the Lord because of or despite their suffering?

Quote: BECAUSE GOD DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE SUFFERING.

But I think he did, for to create Hell and then remove suffering from the human lexicon would be the worst crime I can imagine.

Quote: If you can get god to slide my phone across my desk, right now, then god exists, otherwise he doesn't. Certainly the creator of the universe can move a few ounces of telephone. Right? I'm waiting...

How does god visiting you right now prove suffering is “bad” or “good”? You’ve said animals cannot make choices like that. How come you are able to do so?

Quote:What you've done is given me an impossible task, and then stated that if I complete said task, I win, and if I can't, you're premise is correct. Where, exactly, is it stated that if ALL suffering is not bad, then god is loving? That's your own personal rationalization that you've decided to project.

Huh? Why is it impossible prove whether some suffering is bad or good? I’ve given two dozen examples of both in these threads. All I’m asking is for you to commit to one of three choices:

1. All suffering is unneeded/unwanted/unwarranted/bad or

2. Some suffering is appropriate (like, I’m thrilled if a paedophile feels intense guilt and suffers from those guilt feelings or

3. All suffering has meaning and purpose

It sure seems like every atheist here picks #1. Is that your pick? I do think pick #1 is part of an immature viewpoint, and I’ve said so, but I honestly want to know your opinion.

Quote:My argument will not change. God did not have to create suffering. God did anyway. Suffering, therefore, was created simply for the purpose of suffering. That is not loving.

So, I take it you pick #1 then…?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Genocide in the Bible
Quote: Congratulations on winning the "justifying a genocide award!" I believe all of mankind will look upon you favorably throughout history.

I see. So you are saying genocide is bad, then. Actually, it ALMOST sounds like you, an atheist, think genocide is EVIL (shudder). What is the absolute standard or morality you refer to that allows you to make this subjective choice?

Quote: Context, context, context... What bothers me is this is such a ridiculously poor defense by believers. God creates a book which is supposed to be taken literally by mankind but of course fills it with flaws, fantasies, contradictions and crimes against humanity. Of course he also says he loves us when he continues to systematically murder us and you try to say they are more degenerate than they are now? How possibly? What could they have done to deserve eradication of not only the adults but the children and toddlers to the infants and newborns who somehow had to be killed in such a savage way by a deity? Humans can't possibly do whatever they wanted and if you truly believe the flood happened you are very delusional because of the lack of water on this planet(Including the poles and ice that cover the planet) and nearly no chance of surviving unless you use the excuse of magic.

I see. So if you believe children are innocent, you must also believe adults are not innocent. So then some suffering is deserved?

PS. You do know that when scientists first moved away from adhering to a biblical flood, they chose to say the Earth was mostly covered by ice… which is made from… wait for it… keep waiting… wait for it…

Quote: Now I want to address this point. You say people die of natural causes and that is true but God brought this upon the people. He apparently did this with his power to kill all this life and not just human life but plants and animals included!

I am glad you conceded already though and hope you continue to look into the facts. If your God doesn't control nature like you are implying then he isn't all powerful.

Right. God made natural causes, and he made death, and life. Right. So forget genocide, and say, “Man. God kills EVERYONE!” and then we’re on my playing field, where I remind you about the odds of death, being as they are… wait for it… 1:1.

Quote: Also, I read a later post and you said babies are innocent and your deity still apparently killed them? Do you not see the problem here? God is just so because he is just he kills babies.

The ultimate of evil.

Yes, babies are innocent regarding salvation and go to Heaven, yes. Yes, god kills babies, cute and cuddly little babies, even fetuses in the womb.

Yes.

And so you’re pissed because not only does god take the lives of babies but commanded people to kill babies? Really? But I thought if god exists you blame all evil on him anyway? BE CONSISTENT.

Let’s be specific. You punched someone in the face once and they punched you back. Did you punch them or did god punch them?

THINK!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: