Geological Question
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03-09-2010, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2010 12:51 PM by ebilekittae.)
Geological Question
So back on the sixth day of debate with my brother, he laughed at the Potholer54debunks video of debunking Noah's flood and gave me several links to Answers in Genesis telling me that he'd rather not even get into that silly argument, that he was tired of those points and I could look up the answers myself.

Aside from the Dodgy feeling I felt at his response and the offense I took at his condescending laughter, I looked into the articles listed and was bown away by how... wrong they were. They quite literally went against everything I was taught since third grade science. O_o My immediate reaction was "there has to be some good evidence for them to be able to deny so much." But I found none. I found, however, lots of claims that the geological record is wrong (without evidence saying why they came to that conclusion), that there is no evidence of slow erosion between sedimentary layers in the geological columns (but rather only evidence of fast erosion); that the fossils found within the strata are not in evolutionary order, but, rather, random; and finally that god made the strata through... why, MAGIC of course!

Before the conclusion of the debate, I honestly and truly thought my brother to be an educated and truth-seeking guy, so I decided to look into it and try to give him the benefit of a doubt. Unfortunately, I couldn't find these arguments anywhere except in atheist sites listing the fact that things AREN'T like that as evidence that the Flood didn't happen.

I'm still willing to give him the smallest benefit of a doubt, but it's looking pretty grim. Have any of you all, in your arguments, found in any way that these arguments have at least some sort of far-fetched base? Or is it really too late for my brother?

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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03-09-2010, 12:38 PM
RE: Geological Question
It is quite possibly too late. Sorry to say it, but someone deep enough to listen to AiG is probably beyond all hope.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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03-09-2010, 01:14 PM
 
RE: Geological Question
People believe in crap because they want to. Until he doesn't want to, then you're spinning your wheels. If he believes in the giant zoo boat on the mountain, your choices are pretty limited: love him and let him believe, or argue with him and frustrate yourself. Good luck.
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03-09-2010, 01:55 PM
RE: Geological Question
Be empathetic. He believes what he does because he's made a choice to follow what makes him feel good, instead of what makes sense. That means not only that he's unlikely to change, but more importantly, he doesn't want to. He argues with you because he thinks he's helping you. It's frustrating, but it's out of a genuine desire to make your life better. Of course there will be arguments in the future. Be the brother who doesn't start it. That will make both your lives better. He knows your stance, and you know his. What more can be done until one of you decides they WANT to open themselves to change. If you are open, then listen to his opinion when he offers it. Do you need to offer yours? No. Not really. Will you? Of course you will. You're only human. But the point is to keep it to a minimum. Only offer what you think may constructively contribute to his thinking. If you know he won't listen to reason (and be honest with yourself. Most of the time you KNOW you're talking to a brick wall just so you can vent your frustration) don't try to offer it. You'll only upset him and yourself.

It's your brothers choice to change. Let him make it, and do what you can to make his life happy, whether he makes that choice or not. You'll be happier for it, and so will he.

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03-09-2010, 02:27 PM
RE: Geological Question
You guys are right. Again. It seems I've made the same mistake twice (at least this time I didn't actually argue with him? Does that count for something? =P). I really can't let this stuff bother me. Thanks for your advice, guys, I'll try to be better at adhering to it this time. =P

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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03-09-2010, 02:46 PM
 
RE: Geological Question
LeviTimes,

I agree with Unbeliever ... it's probably too late, but since he's your brother, you're sort of locked into a relationship with him. Stark Raving's advice is probably the best you can do. I have lots of friends and even some relatives with whom I disagree strongly over such issues as religion ... in general, we don't ever bring up these 'hot button' items and so can mostly enjoy one another's company. Both sides have agreed to disagree, in other words, and avoid conflict in which no one's ever going to change their minds. You can't prevent your brother from bringing up such things, but if you realize that it's pointless to argue, then change the subject or just ask him not to 'stir the pot'. And don't mention these topics yourself.
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05-09-2010, 06:09 PM
RE: Geological Question
Here's how I view all the impossible stuff in the bible. It has to be via magic. It doesn't matter if they can try to use science words to explain some things, there's a point where there is simply no other explanation but pure and simple magic.

Point is, if there is some all-powerful God that can break every natural law, does there really have to be any scientific explanation for anything in the bible? Trying my best here, everything said on AiG is possible with a hefty dose of magic.

And I do realize what a stretch that is. I'm trying to rationalize their beliefs. The thought that people actually believe that no natural laws are violated in the bible is just too depressing for me.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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06-09-2010, 06:01 AM
 
RE: Geological Question
(05-09-2010 06:09 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Here's how I view all the impossible stuff in the bible. It has to be via magic. It doesn't matter if they can try to use science words to explain some things, there's a point where there is simply no other explanation but pure and simple magic.

Point is, if there is some all-powerful God that can break every natural law, does there really have to be any scientific explanation for anything in the bible? Trying my best here, everything said on AiG is possible with a hefty dose of magic.

And I do realize what a stretch that is. I'm trying to rationalize their beliefs. The thought that people actually believe that no natural laws are violated in the bible is just too depressing for me.
To me, the interesting part is that religious people say we're supposed to take all the stuff in the monotheistic sacred texts on faith. That's being irrational. Fine. So why then do they try to rationalize their beliefs? If they're taking it on faith, what's the point of trying to provide a rational basis for an irrational belief? I see that as another example of inconsistency.
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06-09-2010, 11:11 PM
RE: Geological Question
I'm sure I read that the Egyptians have records from the 50 years before and after the supposes date of the world flood with everything filled in in between.

I'm sure that hieroglyphic star and date charts prove that the flood didn't happen. Though sorry I have no idea where to look at these other than in Cyro 0-0


Also at 2chuck: They try to rationalize in the hope of converting a rational person to their religion. Thats their main motivation for just about everything. That the only reason they don't kill themselves as far as I've seen. A dead person can't spawn or convert more people.

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07-09-2010, 07:21 AM
 
RE: Geological Question
I think the problem for Christians is that they accept their Bible as truth and never, ever, question whether it is in fact right or wrong. Clearly there's some good advice and information in the Bible just as clearly as it is that there are some dreadful acts committed in the Bible in the name of God. However, there was little chance of looking at the dreadful acts -- only the good ones. I have even wondered whether the quotes we get from Christians just come from websites like answers in Genesis.

Someone posted something on Twitter today which amused my son -- who was reading it. Here is the quote --

Quote:To most Christians, the Bible is like a software license. Nobody actually reads it. They just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree."

I rather think it sums up the problem for Christians -- they accept the Bible is true, fail to read it seriously, but does it is true anyway.

So far as the comparison of science, geology and the Bible are concerned, once one has convince oneself that the Bible is true there is no real discussion -- anything that does not match the Bible cannot be true. Of course, the Christians promoting the Young Earth creationist ideas do so in a way which is hardly compatible with the Bible. They nearly add up the ages of the people listed in the Bible but is not clear in the Bible stories that that is the way things should be done and it is not even clear that the creation stories themselves are intended to be read as single day is (24 hours that is) so any suggestion of 6000 years at the age of the Earth is doubtful even when compared with the biblical texts.

Whilst we have preachers teaching fundamentalist Christianity and while we have websites like answers in Genesis, we are just going to have people who can't cope with the idea that the biblical text is not actually the word of the sky daddy and merely the writings of some people in the ancient world.
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