George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
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18-01-2017, 10:57 PM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
The United States has been "intervening" in Central and South America, as well as the Middle East, on behalf of our corporate interests for well over a century, now.

The Drug War goes back to the 1930s and was ramped up primarily under the Nixon and Reagan administrations. (Keep in mind, I lost a decade of my life to that war, and not even on a legitimate conviction.)

You would literally have to loathe every President we've had for more than 100 years, to the point that you'd wish death upon all of them.

There's a good argument to be made that the United States long ago gave up moral legitimacy as a global actor... but none of it merits wishing disease and/or death upon the holder of the office of the Presidency.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-01-2017, 11:10 PM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
(18-01-2017 10:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The United States has been "intervening" in Central and South America, as well as the Middle East, on behalf of our corporate interests for well over a century, now.

The Drug War goes back to the 1930s and was ramped up primarily under the Nixon and Reagan administrations. (Keep in mind, I lost a decade of my life to that war, and not even on a legitimate conviction.)

You would literally have to loathe every President we've had for more than 100 years, to the point that you'd wish death upon all of them.

There's a good argument to be made that the United States long ago gave up moral legitimacy as a global actor... but none of it merits wishing disease and/or death upon the holder of the office of the Presidency.

I always get that ookie feeling when people make me feel the need to defend someone I don't particularly care for. Like the Bush family...but I can't wish bad things to happen to anyone.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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18-01-2017, 11:45 PM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
(18-01-2017 11:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 10:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The United States has been "intervening" in Central and South America, as well as the Middle East, on behalf of our corporate interests for well over a century, now.

The Drug War goes back to the 1930s and was ramped up primarily under the Nixon and Reagan administrations. (Keep in mind, I lost a decade of my life to that war, and not even on a legitimate conviction.)

You would literally have to loathe every President we've had for more than 100 years, to the point that you'd wish death upon all of them.

There's a good argument to be made that the United States long ago gave up moral legitimacy as a global actor... but none of it merits wishing disease and/or death upon the holder of the office of the Presidency.

I always get that ookie feeling when people make me feel the need to defend someone I don't particularly care for. Like the Bush family...but I can't wish bad things to happen to anyone.

That's nice Moms. I feel the same way. Even though I loath trump with every fiber of my being I don't wish him dead and I don't wish cancer on his wife or kids or anything like that. (unless he causes a nuclear war. I'd probably change my mind then)

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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19-01-2017, 12:18 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2017 12:27 AM by I'mFred.)
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
Quote:You would literally have to loathe every President we've had for more than 100 years, to the point that you'd wish death upon all of them.

You have to be a fucking piece of shit to become that powerful in the first place.

I know that I may seem trollish or insanely bitter or whatever but really, fuck them all.
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19-01-2017, 12:26 AM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
Quote:unless he causes a nuclear war.

As long nukes exist it's an absolute fact that over a long enough timeline their will be a nuclear holocaust. It could be 100,000 years from now or it could be tomorrow but no matter how small the fraction of a risk is after a certain amount time it will occur. Trump openly said he WANTS a new nuclear arms race. How horrible does someone have to be to hate?
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19-01-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
(18-01-2017 08:22 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 07:43 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Sorry, Fred, but you know I'm about as liberal as they come and I have to call "Offside" on that one.

You don't have to like them as people or as politicians, but they still should be wished well in combat against illness.

No one deserves to suffer.

I am no fan of the Bush dynasty, but I can't think of anything they did that warrants such a remark.

Here's three: The Panama Invasion, The Gulf War, and The War on Drugs.

His foreign and economic policies were designed to sacrifice the lives of poor people to perpetuate a system of oppression designed by the ultra rich. He's an absolute scumbag. He should be universally hated.

War on drugs has not been a uniquely Bush Sr policy. It started with the Reagans (as Nancy's pet initiative as first lady), and has been continued unabated and to varying degrees by all administrations since then.

Bush Sr had near universal worldwide support for his Gulf War initiative. I can't say that the US policies have been as clearly well supported since then or that subsequent military actions and wars in Iraq were prudent decisions, but what Bush Sr did was a "good war" if there ever is such a thing--recall it was limited in scope to repelling Iraq from invading and taking over Kuwait, had wide support from all Middle East nations (including some that we are not so friendly with) including their active participation in the war. My guess is you are allowing everything that happened after the first Iraq war to color your impressions of Gulf War I.

And take a look at what was going on around the time of the invasion of Panama--Noriega's political opponent had just overwhelmingly won their national election, but Noriega tossed out the election results and clung to power. Noriega openly threatened US citizens' lives within his country, was a lynchpin in money laundering for Central American drug cartels, and declared Panama to be at war with the US. Once we removed Noriega, we left and turned the government over to the actual elected winners of the most recent national elections. All in all, seems like pretty good justification to me to do what we did.
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19-01-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
(18-01-2017 11:45 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 11:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I always get that ookie feeling when people make me feel the need to defend someone I don't particularly care for. Like the Bush family...but I can't wish bad things to happen to anyone.

That's nice Moms. I feel the same way. Even though I loath trump with every fiber of my being I don't wish him dead and I don't wish cancer on his wife or kids or anything like that. (unless he causes a nuclear war. I'd probably change my mind then)

That was the issue in my class the other day with one student, that I alluded to in the Ranting thread. He was hoping for the death of that politician, tomorrow. It was like, "One. That's not something to say in a public venue, I've chatted with a Secret Service guy who interviews people for making those sorts of comments in public, if they give a bit more detail than you did. Two. No matter how horrible you think a person is, they probably don't deserve death. Three. Just think what that would do to the nation and the world in the scramble afterwards."

So gotta disagree Fred. Like others have said, I'm not a fan of the dynasty they set up. Nor am I particularly a fan of Bush's CIA tenure. Nor many of his policies though I admit, I support his efforts in the Gulf War, which included a coalition of Arab nations, an invitation from Saudi Arabia, and the liberation of a U.S. ally in the form of Kuwait. However, far less happy about how he basically supported people verbally about rising up against Saddam, then let them be butchered.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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19-01-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
Given the choice I would vote for both Jr and Sr Bush over trump in a heartbeat.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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19-01-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
(19-01-2017 11:19 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Given the choice I would vote for both Jr and Sr Bush over trump in a heartbeat.

Trump is profoundly worse.

Quote:My guess is you are allowing everything that happened after the first Iraq war to color your impressions of Gulf War I.

I'm not.
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19-01-2017, 09:32 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2017 09:39 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush Hospitalized
Well, while I agree that the international coalition made it a "just war" in the loosest sense, enough that I don't argue against it, I've heard a good case made that the Bush Dynasty's oil-money background (and thus connections) was behind President Bush's decision to invade, and that Hussein had been "baited" in large part into invading Kuwait by US-Saudi (read: Bechtel/Halliburton) projects that slant-drilled sideways from Kuwait's border underneath into Iraq's oil reserves. Further, Iraq was being partly supported by the US up to that point, as a bulwark against revolutionary Islamic Shiite Iran. [Edit to Add: I should also point out that Iraq owed us a LOT of money, since we basically financed their war against Iran, and Iraq was angry that we had worked with Kuwait to lower the price of oil when Iraq needed the price to stay high in order to pay us back. In either case, our support of the Kuwaitis at the expense, literally, of Iraq was "bait".]

The Saudis certainly did consider Iraq a threat, but as I understand it a large part of that threat had less to do with Hussein's military and more to do with the fact that he was more of a secularist than his nation's position between the "hometown" country of Islam's Prophet, which is Sunni, and the country full of radical Shiites would allow him to be. I think Hussein's downfall was a conglomeration of the greed of the US and Saudi leadership, along with public opinion against Saddam's (relative) secularism from practically everyone else in the immediate region.

Keep in mind that the Iraq-Iran war was started in 1980 by Saddam in large part because the new radicals in charge of Iran were making noises against his "suppression" of Shiites in Iraq. He also claimed to want access to the Gulf over territory that Iran posessed because of the British partition, but most military historians reject that as a pretext. They then fought for almost the entire decade leading up to the Gulf War, from '80 to '88. To the two major theocratic regimes bordering Saddam's country, he was effectively the Devil.

If we ignore what he did under orders while in charge of the CIA (well-chronicled by Noam Chomsky), President Bush's betrayal of the Kurds and others who rose up against Saddam, after encouraging them to do so, is among his worst crimes, I'd say... but it's not like we haven't done that before... *cough* Bay of Pigs *cough*.

In all of these things, President Bush was a participant, but only by way of continuing things the United States had been doing long before his arrival into public office, and certainly which President Reagan had continued and/or expanded while Bush was his VP. Culpable? Yes... but not to a degree any deeper than almost every other President we've had in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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