German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
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13-03-2015, 07:59 AM
German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/1...1V20150313

Quote:Muslim women teachers can wear headscarves as long as it does not cause disruption in school, Germany's top court said in a ruling that overturns an earlier ban and may fuel debate about what some nationalist groups see as creeping "Islamization".

The Constitutional Court struck down its own 2003 ban on headscarves for teachers, which had led some German states to forbid Muslim headscarves in schools while permitting the use of Christian symbols such as crucifixes and nuns' habits.

The court in Karlsruhe, ruling on a case brought by a Muslim woman blocked from a teaching job because of her headscarf, said religious symbols could only be banned when they posed "not just an abstract but a concrete risk of disruption in schools".

"This is a good day for religious freedom," said Volker Beck, a lawmaker from the opposition Greens.

And

Quote:But the German Teachers' Association (DL) called the ruling "problematic", saying it undermined the principle of political and religious "neutrality" in schools and public services.

"We fear this ruling could lead to disruption in certain schools if, for example, non-Muslim parents do not agree with their children being taught by teachers in headscarves," said Josef Kraus, president of the teachers' body.

I don't really know what to think. I believe Christian symbols shouldn't be privileged over Muslim symbols and if we're going to ban one religion's symbol we should ban symbols from all religions.

I'm still not sure, I want people to have freedom to wear what they want, but I think using a veil in public school violates the principle of secularism, just like a crucifix nailed in the wall...

I also think using a veil (specially the burqa) causes issues with communication (facial expressions) and possibly endangers security because you have no idea who's teaching you.


Germans, what do you think of this?

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-03-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
(13-03-2015 07:59 AM)Blackout Wrote:  ...
I'm still not sure, I want people to have freedom to wear what they want, but I think using a veil in public school violates the principle of secularism, just like a crucifix nailed in the wall...

I also think using a veil (specially the burqa) causes issues with communication (facial expressions) and possibly endangers security because you have no idea who's teaching you.

Germans, what do you think of this?

I'm not German (or Germans Are Coming) but I do know that there is no official state religion in Germany ... kinda. (I blame Thomas Hobbes).

Wikipedia Wrote:The national constitutions of 1919 and 1949 guarantee freedom of faith and religion; earlier, these freedoms were mentioned only in state constitutions. The modern constitution of 1949 also states that no one may be discriminated against due to their faith or religious opinions. A state church does not exist in Germany.[10]

Religious communities that are of considerable size and stability and are loyal to the constitution can be recognised as "Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechtes" (statutory corporation). This gives them certain privileges, for example being able to give religious instruction in state schools (as enshrined in the German constitution, though some states are exempt from this) and having membership fees collected (for a fee) by the German revenue department as Church tax. It is a surcharge amounting to between 8 or 9% of the income tax. The status mainly applies to the Roman Catholic Church, the mainline Protestant EKD,many Freechurches and Jewish communities. There have been numerous discussions of allowing other religious groups like Muslims into this system as well. The Muslim efforts were hampered by the Muslims' own disorganised state in Germany, with many small rivalling organisations and no central leadership, which does not fit well into a legal frame that was originally created with well-organized, large Christian churches in mind.

A coupla things though...

1. Headscarf =/= Veil
2. Typically, societies that enforce the burqa as a public fashion preference are also, typically, the societies that are unlikely to encourage education / empowerment of women.

Undecided

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13-03-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
What's the difference between headscarf and veil?

Well no one is enforcing here, I think it's just a legal permit. I am curious because in some countries like France all religious symbols are banned, including crucifixes, Jesus paintings, veils, etc. This has been controversial.


Quote:For those wearing it, the headscarf can have different meanings. The wearers may have exercised a free personal choice to wear the headscarf; or external pressure may have forced them to do so. Most French people find this idea of constraint or pressure particularly intolerable when it relates to young girls (some girls start wearing a headscarf before the age of 11).
The purpose of dressing according to hijab varies from person to person. Some women see the headscarf as a way to preserve their modesty and prevent any sexual attractions as in western countries. Some see it as a form of liberation above the sexualisation and consumerism of modern society. Others see it as a patriarchal article intended to keep women hidden and subservient.

The representatives of the main religions and leaders of human rights organisations have expressed several objections to a law banning the wearing of religious symbols. They believe it will lead to the stigmatisation of Muslims, exacerbate anti-religious sentiment, promote the image of a France that restricts personal freedom, and encourage Muslim girls to drop out of schools if they feel forced to choose between schooling and their faith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_...eadscarves

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13-03-2015, 09:09 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
(13-03-2015 08:43 AM)Blackout Wrote:  What's the difference between headscarf and veil?

Seriously? A veil covers the face, a headscarf does not.

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13-03-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
(13-03-2015 09:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 08:43 AM)Blackout Wrote:  What's the difference between headscarf and veil?

Seriously? A veil covers the face, a headscarf does not.

I'm not native, I didn't know, I thought both were synonymous. Thanks.

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13-03-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
(13-03-2015 08:43 AM)Blackout Wrote:  What's the difference between headscarf and veil?

Headscarves

Veils

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13-03-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
There ya go, Blackout... have we now lifted your veil of ignorance?

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13-03-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
My gramdma wore a headscarf. Of course, we called it a baboushka. It's really more of an old world culture thing than a religious thing. Also, it kept her hair clean. Drinking Beverage

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13-03-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
At what point does it stop being a piece of fabric and start being a religious icon?

It's only a religious icon so long as you assign that value to it yourself. The scarf is fine.
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13-03-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: German constitutional court allows the heardscarves in public schools
(13-03-2015 11:46 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  At what point does it stop being a piece of fabric and start being a religious icon?

It's only a religious icon so long as you assign that value to it yourself. The scarf is fine.

A difficult to answer question, but in this case the decision was made specifically for Muslim women

Quote:There ya go, Blackout... have we now lifted your veil of ignorance?
Mistakes happen, I appreciate the correction... However, this is not the most relevant point. We're talking about secularism and religious symbols in public schools.

Personally I'm in favour of not allowing anything that screams "This is my religion!" and it's a principle that should be applied equally to all religions. Small symbols like concealable crucifixes are ok (or similar symbols for other religions).

If the object isn't religious but just a piece of clothing I see no reason to allow it as well - In my country it is considered uncivilized to wear hats during classes (any kind of hat) or clothing that covers the head, unless you want to cover a scar, deformation or a condition like cancer.

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