Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
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24-12-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
(24-12-2016 11:31 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(24-12-2016 10:02 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  I care about that, and then I also care about the propaganda they create to cover it up.

I stopped reading the news a few years ago. Look at the media, Murdoch owns Fox!!!

Mr Page three!

IMO, one needs to use one's brain and devise what is happening, rather than what is reported.

It is a truth that Trump is US president elect.

This is what's happening.

Meanwhile, I got shunned by a cat! Sad

Don't take it personal. Cats are assholes.
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24-12-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
Doesn't come as a surprise for me to be honest.
With Germany having cencored for as long as I can remember and probably even before then, I am not surprised that they have such ideas now.
I mean as far as I can see from the linked article, they are "just" talking right now. No laws have been formed and no such ministry has been founded yet (YET!) but..
...the US showed the way on how to make a people believe that an invasion of ones privacy is ok and should be done. The US showed the world how to make a people think that a really bad thing is good for them so that they will vote for it. Now the world follows this example. Keep your country scared and you will be able to put pretty much anything into law.

The good thing though is, that it will never be possible to really censor things on the internet.
Remember Ursula von der Leyen (i think it was her) who wanted to censor the internet just a few years ago? It backfired. Even if they bring a ministry like that into reality, guess what people will do with their edgy ideas, odd idiologies, and fake news? They will move on the darknet which is completely ungoverned and you can find pretty much anything there. From cute bunnies, to fake news, to illegal things.

Here is a video (German, sorry) from back then. The Germans here might know it. I will translate the first screen of this video:
Quote:Article 5 of the (German) constitution:
Everybody has the right to express and spread their opinion in writing or speech and to educate themselves through commonly available sources.
The freedom of press and the freedom of reporting through broadcast and film is ensured.
A censorship is not taking place.




cheers

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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24-12-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
So that you know article 5: What makes you think that an according law for censorship will be passed? What makes you think that the opposition will not call the supreme court? What makes you think the supreme court will not skip said law?

In Germany, like in the US, unconstitutional laws can not last. The supreme court can and has rejected lots of laws.

1) 2010: Law that allowed (for the government) massive storage/saving of www and phone related data.

2) 2010: Harz IV for women and children had to be re-calculated. Harz IV is basically a free payment for unemployed people allowing for being able to live "in human dignity" = providing money for basic support of food, clothes, etc. It was found to be unfair to women and children.

3) 2008: Tax refund was canceled for people who travel long distance to their jobs. Supreme court skipped it.

4) 2007: Tax on inheritance (from deceased relatives) was found to be unconstitutional in its current form

5) 2006: Luftsicherheitsgesetz was skipped: It was meant as a means to tighten airspace security. Amongst other things it would have allowed to shoot down kidnapped planes in german airspace (sacrificing aircraft passengers) like in 9/11.

6) 2004: Law that allowed the government to spy more on its citizens. Skiped

7) 2002: Immigration law was skipped.

Thats 7 laws in 8 years.
But lets go on:

8) Multiple (anti) abortion laws were skipped

9) Pornography and art arent mutually exclusive according to supreme court (so much for censorship, not even porn is forbidden, well porn with animals and kids is Rolleyes )

10) 2001: gay marriage is equal to hetero marriage

11) "soldiers are murderers" was found to be in accordance with free speech and to be protected (so much for censorship again)

12) several decisions regarding freedom of religion, including to forbid bavaria to have crosses mandatory in every classrom.

When you look at the current members, then you will find that in the 1st (of 2) senate 5/8 members were nominated by non-conservative parties, in the 2nd senate 4/8.

What do you think would happen once a law for censorship was passed when you consider all of the above?

The last time i checked, decisions of the supreme court of a fascist Germany looked somehow different. If i only could remember how exactly Rolleyes

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-12-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
What I don't understand is if countries really believe that Russia hacked the US election and are concerned that they could do it again, why dont they reveal how they know?

I kinda think that maybe, revealing how they know, would indicate and reveal how much they trawl and track internet traffic, possibly illegally in some ways?? Which would be just as big a story.

Russia has for the past 6-8 years, done quite a lot of anti establishment reporting and made RT popular in many western countries.

The hipocrisy of "fake news" by the peddlers of propoganda themselves.....

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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24-12-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
(24-12-2016 02:16 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  So that you know article 5: What makes you think that an according law for censorship will be passed? What makes you think that the opposition will not call the supreme court? What makes you think the supreme court will not skip said law?

Because censorship is already in place in Germany, my friend.
You can list as many unpassed laws as you wish, the truth is that German government doesn't give a shit. Censorship in Germany has been in place for decades and now the government has a new thing to freak out about.
They can discuss their shit as much as they want. As long as they sell it to the people in a way they accept it, no one will challenge it. (Sure if someone challenges it, then cool beans, the surpreme court can have a look and say no, yay surpreme court)

Germany talks about freedom of speech and "ensures" it in Article 5
but
that freedom of speech somehow is not so free.

Personally, I don't give a shit about Germany anymore. I left many moons ago and do not intend to go back. But it is a pain to see what is happening all over the world right now, and Germany is part of the world. Somehow governments are getting very trigger happy with censorship and privacy invasions nowadays. yay world, way to go.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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24-12-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
And in a similar move - in the US - the Pentagon is being renamed "The Ministry of Peace"...

......


signed

G. Orwell
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24-12-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
(24-12-2016 04:32 PM)Leela Wrote:  
(24-12-2016 02:16 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  So that you know article 5: What makes you think that an according law for censorship will be passed? What makes you think that the opposition will not call the supreme court? What makes you think the supreme court will not skip said law?

Because censorship is already in place in Germany, my friend.
You can list as many unpassed laws as you wish, the truth is that German government doesn't give a shit. Censorship in Germany has been in place for decades and now the government has a new thing to freak out about.
They can discuss their shit as much as they want. As long as they sell it to the people in a way they accept it, no one will challenge it. (Sure if someone challenges it, then cool beans, the surpreme court can have a look and say no, yay surpreme court)

Germany talks about freedom of speech and "ensures" it in Article 5
but
that freedom of speech somehow is not so free.

Personally, I don't give a shit about Germany anymore. I left many moons ago and do not intend to go back. But it is a pain to see what is happening all over the world right now, and Germany is part of the world. Somehow governments are getting very trigger happy with censorship and privacy invasions nowadays. yay world, way to go.

Quote:You can list as many unpassed laws as you wish but the truth is....
Sunds more to me like someone who is not going to change his/her mind, evidence notwithstanding. Please back up your truth.

Quote:The supreme court can have a look and say no, yay surpreme court
Your point is? Thats exactly the job of supreme court to evaluate laws, not to make them. What did/do you expect? The government can pass as many laws it wants. As soon as the supreme court deems these unconstitutional, the laws are invalid and the government has to make new, constitutional laws. Thats how the german, and the US, constitution works.

Lets go back to what we have, the Spiegel article
Quote:German officials have proposed creating a special government unit to combat fake news in the run-up to next year's general election, reports say
So the fact that DeMaizieres office is proposing something means to you that it will be passed as a law? Why do you think so?

and your conjecture
Quote:I mean as far as I can see from the linked article, they are "just" talking right now. No laws have been formed and no such ministry has been founded yet (YET!) but...

I remain sceptical and put my trust in the government (please dont twist my words here, i trust them until that law is about to proposed, not one inch further) not to act up with paranoia, and finally in the supreme court (as demonstrated). However i agree that something needs to be done against that fake news bullshit. I am not yet sure however what exactly and if immediate laws are the right thing. My understanding is that this is the typical reaction of politicians, as i have seen it in the past 50 years after such events. They want to reach out to possible voters (yes, as it was mentioned, next September are elections, and i bet DeMaiziere is trying to get votes) and want to show that they arent doing nothinĀ“ (= activism, mostly the stupid sort). I rather would have been surprised this would not have happened.

Once such a law should be proposed, i am confident Merkels govt will be grilled in debates in parliament by the Green party, "the Left" (socialists) who represent a total of 16%, and possibly the Social Democrats who represent another 25% of the voters, because they want to position themselves for the next elections as well. If the SPD doesnt support this law, it wont be passed anyhow.

Quote:As long as they sell it to the people in a way they accept it, no one will challenge it.
I dont buy it for now, and i know a lot of people who wouldnt either. We will see.

P.S.: To anyone who is interested. DeMaiziere and his office are conservative (CDU)

Imho, one thing we dont need in those times of hysteria and (possible) impending chaos is counter-paranoia to fuel the fires. We should stay calm and rational.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-12-2016, 10:01 PM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
(24-12-2016 05:47 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  And in a similar move - in the US - the Pentagon is being renamed "The Ministry of Peace"...

......


signed

G. Orwell

Lol, in 1947, the controlling Department had its name changed from the War Department to the Department of Defense.

Spin ... 'twas ever thus ...
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24-12-2016, 10:25 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2016 06:40 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
(24-12-2016 10:02 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(24-12-2016 08:26 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The government is already fucking you in the basement of a pizza parlor, what do you care? Rolleyes

I care about that, and then I also care about the propaganda they create to cover it up.

Ah, so government 'propaganda' is worthy of consideration, but not anti-government propaganda? You know, like the aforementioned pizza parlor basement you're being fucked in.

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25-12-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Germany to establish a Ministry of Truth
oh wow Deesse you are taking this really personal, are you. Chill man.

(removing chunk of text because honestly I can't give a shit when it comes down to it)
Here is the deal. Even when I have a conversation with a friend on here in pm, I hate the whole quoting bullshit. You go on a quoting spree, ripping sentences and even half sentences out of context like a religious apologetic. So if I hate that when I talk to friends, I am obviously not going to spend time on it when the person doing it is not my friend. I have no patience for that, sorry man. I especially have no patience for getting my post split into fragments in a way that removes the message I am writing.

I agree though that we should stay calm and rational. I said in my post very clearly that right now the government is just freaking out and they are talking about things. Let them talk and we wait and see.

Cheers and happy holidays.
Enjoy some Lebkuchen and Christstollen and don't forget to relax.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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