Germany what are you even up too?
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04-07-2017, 06:19 PM
Germany what are you even up too?
So, Germany has passed a law that states that all social media sites, facebooks, youtubes, twitters etc.. must take down all 'hate speech' (and 'fake news') within 24 hours and on the fence 'hate speech' within 7 days or be fined 5 million Euros, increasing to 50 million if they continue to fail to do so.

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What is with Germany and limiting free speech? Seriously.
The idea of free speech is that everyone gets it. Holocaust deniers, 9/11 'truthers', WBBC, KKK, vegans. Obviously, these are all really bad things to someone with half a brain, but the fact remains that those people have the right to believe those things and talk about it. That's the whole purpose of freedom of speech. If you're shutting down someone's freedom of speech just because you don't like it that's censorship.

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04-07-2017, 06:37 PM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
(04-07-2017 06:19 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  So, Germany has passed a law that states that all social media sites, facebooks, youtubes, twitters etc.. must take down all 'hate speech' (and 'fake news') within 24 hours and on the fence 'hate speech' within 7 days or be fined 5 million Euros, increasing to 50 million if they continue to fail to do so.

Sauce
Sauce
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What is with Germany and limiting free speech? Seriously.
The idea of free speech is that everyone gets it. Holocaust deniers, 9/11 'truthers', WBBC, KKK, vegans. Obviously, these are all really bad things to someone with half a brain, but the fact remains that those people have the right to believe those things and talk about it. That's the whole purpose of freedom of speech. If you're shutting down someone's freedom of speech just because you don't like it that's censorship.

The reason many countries, including ours, have hate speech laws is that speech is considered an action with potentially devastating concequences. Thus, restrictions can be imposed on it like on any other action. Now, the idea of Germany of finning social media website for distributing hateful propaganda is logical under their current laws and status, but can be a concerning precedent if apply without careful jurisprudence.

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04-07-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
Probably the real reason they are doing this is to stop the Russian election misinformation propaganda.

They don't want to end up like the US. There is lots of fake news and shit being tossed at them.

A slippery slope, hard to navigate and wrong one way or the other.

We'll likely be seeing many unusual measures taken by countries who are bombarded with Russian originated misinformation.

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05-07-2017, 12:34 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
Somebody will drag this to supreme court. Imho supreme court will judge this law to be unconstitutional. Privatisation of decision what is constitutional free speech or prohibited hate speech wont fly with supreme court.

Its telling however that the first to criticize this law was the AfD, the fake news and BS spouting alt right. Looks like Maas struck a nerve at least. Big Grin

I wont go into more details but i fully support Doms statements. Simply doing nothing and keep watching can lead to genocidal policy as demonstrated in the 30s or being drowned in a bottomless quagmire of bullshit in the media, like the US is facing it right now (and nobody knows where this will end).

So, if anything i appreciate the effort of Maas to do something even if he was clearly wrong in the choice of weapons/law.

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05-07-2017, 06:42 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
(05-07-2017 12:34 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Somebody will drag this to supreme court. Imho supreme court will judge this law to be unconstitutional. Privatisation of decision what is constitutional free speech or prohibited hate speech wont fly with supreme court.

Its telling however that the first to criticize this law was the AfD, the fake news and BS spouting alt right. Looks like Maas struck a nerve at least. Big Grin

I wont go into more details but i fully support Doms statements. Simply doing nothing and keep watching can lead to genocidal policy as demonstrated in the 30s or being drowned in a bottomless quagmire of bullshit in the media, like the US is facing it right now (and nobody knows where this will end).

So, if anything i appreciate the effort of Maas to do something even if he was clearly wrong in the choice of weapons/law.

Maybe a law with time limits - like applying it only for two months before elections or something like that.

Something has to be done to stop the propaganda, but what?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-07-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
To me, the 21st century greatest challenge will not be with censorship, but with the much more efficient disinformation. In the past, kowledge was hard to acquire and limited to printing and libraries. Censorship was thus an excellent way to control information and snuff it out. Today, with the internet, people are exposed to so much information that it becomes difficult to determine which one is valuable and which one is crap. Modern day propagandists and autocrats no longer need censorship as much as they use to. Disinformation, keeping the population confused, divided and afraid is much more practicle. If the antidote to autocracies used to be free speech, I am affraid ''the virus has evolved'' they are learning how to subvert that said free speech to achieve the same goal. This is what makes putinism so dangerous. If we censor to much, old school autocracy may return, not enough and we may fall into the trapping of a new breed.

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05-07-2017, 10:15 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
(05-07-2017 09:28 AM)epronovost Wrote:  To me, the 21st century greatest challenge will not be with censorship, but with the much more efficient disinformation. In the past, kowledge was hard to acquire and limited to printing and libraries. Censorship was thus an excellent way to control information and snuff it out. Today, with the internet, people are exposed to so much information that it becomes difficult to determine which one is valuable and which one is crap. Modern day propagandists and autocrats no longer need censorship as much as they use to. Disinformation, keeping the population confused, divided and afraid is much more practicle. If the antidote to autocracies used to be free speech, I am affraid ''the virus has evolved'' they are learning how to subvert that said free speech to achieve the same goal. This is what makes putinism so dangerous. If we censor to much, old school autocracy may return, not enough and we may fall into the trapping of a new breed.

It is a really difficult situation. My visions of the future are getting less and less optimistic. Thank dog I am old and won't be here to see the results of the propaganda shit-storm devouring the world. Or maybe I am watching it already...Unsure

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05-07-2017, 10:19 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
Who decides what constitutes hate speech and fake news? I find the religiously-sanctioned advocacy of genital mutilation, science denial, and repression of women to be hateful; I find revelations about achieving an afterlife through Jesus to be fake news.
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05-07-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
(05-07-2017 10:19 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  Who decides what constitutes hate speech and fake news?

I am sure the average world citizen can understand hate when they see it, but certainly not fake. Especially when lies are mixed in with truths.

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05-07-2017, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 11:05 AM by abaris.)
RE: Germany what are you even up too?
(04-07-2017 06:50 PM)Dom Wrote:  Probably the real reason they are doing this is to stop the Russian election misinformation propaganda.

No, the discussion is going on for years by now.

Hate speech is defined as someone saying something on the lines of "I want to kill xxxx". Insert person or group of your choosing. Hatespeech could also be defined as inciting others to out and kill or harm xxx.

There have been concrete incidents, during the refugee crisis, where certain people took to social media to promote the gassing of refugees, burning down the shelters, to shoot them or trying to organize a hate mob being out for violence. The laws against hate speech are in place in many if not most European countries. I'm not sure if the call to violence is even supported under the 1st ammendment of the US constitution. If it is, it's the one out where something like that is possible.

Fake news, there also has been a pretty recent incident where one refugee took a selfie with Angela Merkel. Someone doctored the ensuing social media post in a way that it seemed Merkel had take a selfie with a terrorist. The refugee in question sued for slander, but lost, far as I remember.

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