Get ready for the Jubilee
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09-06-2012, 07:36 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
No you don't elect the queen but you elect the governing party and its members which is where all the decision making takes place anyway. The Queen is merely symbolic. If all the decisions are made by those who actually are voted into power then I don't see the problem, which is what I was getting at.

And of course it stems from mindless loyalty, I agree that there is no financial gain in keeping the monarchy around but I don't know to put this any other way, It's tradition.

And shipping criminals to AUSTRALIA, you never sent them here, is hardly tradition. That was one action that occurred. That would be like saying you have a tradition of invading France because you had the 100year war (which was actually 116 years, fun fact of the day), or you have a tradition of declaring war on Germany.

The Monarchy is different. Do you know your own history, that shit goes way back. Like WAY back. Like before even my Dad was born way back. Monarchies made your country.

Plus the monarchy is more then a historical relic. 80% of England support the monarch. People love them, they rally people, they give inspiration (whats his face for example, the stutter guy). I mean look at the Jubaliee, how many people showed up for that. Everyone out with their flags. There's another tradition by the way, flags. Anthems too. Hmm, think of it like a famous sports player.
Sometimes you just have things because they mean more then money.
A symbol of Britain. Symbol of England. Symbol of Scotland. Symbol of British history. A reminder of our past, a reminded of our history.

And my last post was in regards to be being born into power. You are more well off then some African in Nigeria or where ever, what makes you better then them other then being born where you are now and them being born where they are. Being born into it is a weak argument.

Think about museums, you against those too? Historic buildings? Historic sites? I hear stonehenge is sitting atop some sweet real-estate. Why don't we just remove history from schools and take down all historical or research sites?

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09-06-2012, 07:38 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Think about museums, you against those too? Historic buildings? Historic sites? I hear stonehenge is sitting atop some sweet real-estate. Why don't we just remove history from schools and take down all historical or research sites?
Did you really just say that? Or am I imagining this stupidity?

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09-06-2012, 07:41 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 07:38 AM)frankiej Wrote:  
(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Think about museums, you against those too? Historic buildings? Historic sites? I hear stonehenge is sitting atop some sweet real-estate. Why don't we just remove history from schools and take down all historical or research sites?
Did you really just say that? Or am I imagining this stupidity?
Well under his logic I fail to see the stupidity.

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09-06-2012, 07:48 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
We don't enshrine the ongoing rights of stonehenge and all stone structures that may ever be based on stonehenge in law. There is a difference Smile

As for Australia there is absolutely no point in retaining the legal power of the monarchy. The only reason it still exists is because the different branches of republicanism are more interested in killing off proposals they don't like than killing off the monarchy they all oppose.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-06-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  The Queen is merely symbolic.
Then her position is completely meaningless. There's no point in keeping it.

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And of course it stems from mindless loyalty, I agree that there is no financial gain in keeping the monarchy around but I don't know to put this any other way, It's tradition.

Do you think of yourself as a free thinker?

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And shipping criminals to AUSTRALIA, you never sent them here, is hardly tradition. That was one action that occurred. That would be like saying you have a tradition of invading France because you had the 100year war (which was actually 116 years, fun fact of the day), or you have a tradition of declaring war on Germany.

Ok bad example. when i said your part of the world i should have specified where instead of meaning in general.
The hundred years war was an English thing not Scottish so it wasn't really anything to do with my country.

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  The Monarchy is different. Do you know your own history, that shit goes way back. Like WAY back. Like before even my Dad was born way back. Monarchies made your country.

Plus the monarchy is more then a historical relic. 80% of England support the monarch. People love them, they rally people, they give inspiration (whats his face for example, the stutter guy). I mean look at the Jubaliee, how many people showed up for that. Everyone out with their flags. There's another tradition by the way, flags. Anthems too. Hmm, think of it like a famous sports player.
Sometimes you just have things because they mean more then money.

You keep talking like I'm asking for a white wash of history. I have no idea where your getting that from?. What i am saying is somethings should be left to history the monarchy is one of them. Mindless loyalty is not a good reason for keeping something which has no meaning.

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Symbol of Scotland.
Ok that one made me laugh. We aren't her biggest fans up here. In fact i can only think of a handful of people who support the monarchy.

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And my last post was in regards to be being born into power. You are more well off then some African in Nigeria or where ever, what makes you better then them other then being born where you are now and them being born where they are. Being born into it is a weak argument.

Being born into a certain family doesn't mean they should be in a position of power, being elected does.

(09-06-2012 07:36 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Think about museums, you against those too? Historic buildings? Historic sites? I hear stonehenge is sitting atop some sweet real-estate. Why don't we just remove history from schools and take down all historical or research sites?

That was a pretty stupid statement. Did you just compare an outdated system of government with places of learning?

Again you seem to think i want to erase history. I don't. I have no idea where you keep getting it from?
My point is The monarchy has no relevance in today world. Our head of state should be freely elected and not gain it through birth. If her position is symbolic (again what of?) then it is a pointless position as she has no power. So why keep the monarchy?. Tradition doesn't cut it as an argument. Its a relic of the past that should be confined to the history books.

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09-06-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
Ahhh you're Scottish. I thought you were a Pom.

Makes perfect sense now. Yes I am aware the Scots are not exactly fans of England. In fact I think I read something a little bit back (like this year even) that Scotland was even thinking of leaving Great Britain? (which effectively would be the end of Great Britain.) I don't know what's happening with that but that was exciting to read about.

Quote: Being born into a certain family doesn't mean they should be in a position of power, being elected does.
They don't have any power. It's symbolic.

Quote: There's no point in keeping it.
Quote: So why keep the monarchy?.
Have you not been reading my posts?

Quote: Tradition doesn't cut it as an argument.
Yes it does! It really really does.
You're Scottish, stop playing bagpipes (originally from Ireland, another fun fact of the day) and wearing kilts.

Its tradition. It is a perfectly valid argument. Period.

Quote: Do you think of yourself as a free thinker?
Do you?



Look, obviously cultural influences are coming into play here. We (New Zealand) have been treated well by the British. We are even the second country ever where its native inhabitants received a treaty (American Indians being the other, another fun fact of the day). We never received criminals etc.. all that. Scotland on the other hand.. If I lived in Scotland I obviously would view the monarchy differently as I do. But I don't, I live in New Zealand and hence wooohooo go the Queen.

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09-06-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote: Tradition doesn't cut it as an argument.
Yes it does! It really really does.
You're Scottish, stop playing bagpipes (originally from Ireland, another fun fact of the day) and wearing kilts.

Its tradition. It is a perfectly valid argument. Period.
Just so you know, I'm Scottish too. Big Grin
We don't all go around playing bagpipes... and kilts are only worn for special occasion... all around the world. I don't class that as tradition, I class it as formal wear.

You aren't getting it anyway... tradition for the sake of tradition is pointless. Tradition for other reasons is fair enough, but that isn't really what this is.

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09-06-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
Still, I think americans care more about the british royalty than the brits themselves...

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09-06-2012, 10:30 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 09:57 AM)frankiej Wrote:  
(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yes it does! It really really does.
You're Scottish, stop playing bagpipes (originally from Ireland, another fun fact of the day) and wearing kilts.

Its tradition. It is a perfectly valid argument. Period.
Just so you know, I'm Scottish too. Big Grin
We don't all go around playing bagpipes... and kilts are only worn for special occasion... all around the world. I don't class that as tradition, I class it as formal wear.

You aren't getting it anyway... tradition for the sake of tradition is pointless. Tradition for other reasons is fair enough, but that isn't really what this is.
It is tradition. Bagpipes and kilts are Scottish tradition.

And what other reasons for tradition do you refer to? Please elaborate.

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10-06-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Ahhh you're Scottish. I thought you were a Pom.

Makes perfect sense now. Yes I am aware the Scots are not exactly fans of England. In fact I think I read something a little bit back (like this year even) that Scotland was even thinking of leaving Great Britain? (which effectively would be the end of Great Britain.) I don't know what's happening with that but that was exciting to read about.

Yeah we are having a vote to see if we should stay part of the UK or not. Not sure when it is yet. Personally i would settle for Scotland having complete control over itself without interference from England but still part of the uk in a similar way to how you guys are, as well as other commonwealth countries, But the UK government was against giving us the option to vote for that so we are having a "Should Scotland become independent yes or no" vote. apparently the uk government thinks we are too stupid to handle 3 options on bit of paper. which just shows you what kind of arseholes we have in power.

(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  They don't have any power. It's symbolic.
So why keep paying them millions when If The number Bemore gave is correct (the cost of the jubilee plus other events is hard to find) and if the £200 million they give us per year in the vid posted by hafnof is accurate. It will take well over a decade possibly several (i gave up calculating) for them to be profitable again. So even if its symbolism its costing us waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much to keep them.
(again i don't think either of those figures are accurate. A reliable source for the cost of the monarchy is pretty hard to find)

(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  You're Scottish, stop playing bagpipes (originally from Ireland, another fun fact of the day) and wearing kilts.
Its tradition. It is a perfectly valid argument. Period.
Sorry to spoil your fun fact but bagpipes are most likely middle eastern in origin as the earliest record of them seems to come from that region.
Tartan and bagpipes weren't considered traditional until the 19th century ( i have no idea why. It was mentioned on a repeat of QI and i missed the why part.)

(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Do you?
I do. Do you not see it as hypocritical to think of yourself as a free thinker while at the same time being mindlessly loyal to something?.

(09-06-2012 09:17 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Look, obviously cultural influences are coming into play here. We (New Zealand) have been treated well by the British. We are even the second country ever where its native inhabitants received a treaty (American Indians being the other, another fun fact of the day). We never received criminals etc.. all that. Scotland on the other hand.. If I lived in Scotland I obviously would view the monarchy differently as I do. But I don't, I live in New Zealand and hence wooohooo go the Queen.

Yeah id like to say there's not a degree of bias here, im trying to look past it but somethings aren't easy to overlook. But even at that i still don't think tradition is a good enough reason to keep a costly powerless monarchy.

I googled "why tradition for the sake of tradition is pointless". to see if i could find any good points to bring up about tradition. and most of the results are about religion which gave me the idea to ask. I'm wondering do you feel that teaching Christianity in schools and making church mandatory is something we should be doing?

After all it is tradition and is symbolic.

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