Get ready for the Jubilee
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10-06-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
There is a difference between religion and the Monarchy.
The Queen is a real person, Britain and the Commonwealth are real things.
They're what protects me if someone decides to invade my country while God would just sit on the sidelines lol'ing.

I support the Queen because I think she does good. I think people like having the Queen, they are proud to have her as their Monarch (80% of England support her). (Just a note, if she was a bitch I would happily throw her out on the street myself).
Sometimes you do things not because they make financial sense but because it's what the people want.

Religion for example, I mostly hate, don't believe in God etc.. But that doesn't mean everybody hates it. As much as I hate to admit, the Church often does some good shit for people, it's just that we hear about all the pedophiles and stuff on the news. Nobody cares if a Church fed some poor family.
When we had the massive earthquake in Christchurch (both massive earthquakes) that flattened our second biggest city who were first on the scene? Salvation Army, a Cristian (I think they're christian) church group/charity.

Of course I don't think making Church mandatory is a good idea, or even teaching Christianity in schools. But I would be all for teaching religion (as in all religion) in school. I would have loved to have had RE ("Religious education") at my public school as an option. And that is different then teaching children about their countries history. Also, difference between teaching history and ramming support for the monarchy down people's throat which they don't do in history class I promise you.

Quote: Yeah we are having a vote to see if we should stay part of the UK or
not. Not sure when it is yet. Personally i would settle for Scotland
having complete control over itself without interference from England
but still part of the uk in a similar way to how you guys are, as well
as other commonwealth countries, But the UK government was against
giving us the option to vote for that so we are having a "Should
Scotland become independent yes or no" vote. apparently the uk
government thinks we are too stupid to handle 3 options on bit of paper.
which just shows you what kind of arseholes we have in power.
wait, do you guys not have your own parliament?

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11-06-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(10-06-2012 08:22 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  There is a difference between religion and the Monarchy.
The Queen is a real person, Britain and the Commonwealth are real things.
They're what protects me if someone decides to invade my country while God would just sit on the sidelines lol'ing.

I support the Queen because I think she does good. I think people like having the Queen, they are proud to have her as their Monarch (80% of England support her). (Just a note, if she was a bitch I would happily throw her out on the street myself).
Sometimes you do things not because they make financial sense but because it's what the people want.

Religion for example, I mostly hate, don't believe in God etc.. But that doesn't mean everybody hates it. As much as I hate to admit, the Church often does some good shit for people, it's just that we hear about all the pedophiles and stuff on the news. Nobody cares if a Church fed some poor family.
When we had the massive earthquake in Christchurch (both massive earthquakes) that flattened our second biggest city who were first on the scene? Salvation Army, a Cristian (I think they're christian) church group/charity.

Of course I don't think making Church mandatory is a good idea, or even teaching Christianity in schools. But I would be all for teaching religion (as in all religion) in school. I would have loved to have had RE ("Religious education") at my public school as an option. And that is different then teaching children about their countries history. Also, difference between teaching history and ramming support for the monarchy down people's throat which they don't do in history class I promise you.

But its tradition. And most people in western countries are christian so I'm sure they would be in favor of it.
Do you see where I'm going with this?. Even if something is tradition and is popular with a majority. it doesn't mean its worth keeping.

(10-06-2012 08:22 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  wait, do you guys not have your own parliament?

Yeah we do and we have some control of ourselves we even have different laws to England (although we always have) but our parliament doesn't have the same level of control as your government and other commonwealth countries have over themselves. We are essentially still ruled by Westminster.

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13-06-2012, 08:05 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
Quote: Even if something is tradition and is popular with a majority. it doesn't mean its worth keeping.
Yes it is.

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13-06-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(11-06-2012 08:50 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  But its tradition. And most people in western countries are christian so I'm sure they would be in favor of it.
I'm sorry, what? You've got to be joking, right?
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13-06-2012, 08:34 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
So earmuffs, you seem to be saying that tradition + popularity -> morality. Is that correct?

It seems that if I were to apply your basic notion to other things then we would, for example:
* Want to keep "In god we trust" as the motto of the united states
* Want to keep male circumcision going in the West
* Want to keep plaques in school halls that contain school prayers
*

Do you accept these suggestions?

It seems to me that tradition plus popularity is not sufficient in and of itself to justify keeping something. To me morality is not the outcome of these two things but instead is a necessary input to the formula. If fairness and justness are compromised by a popular tradition then we have every right to call for it to be torn down. The place of the monarchy in many countries is both unfair and unjust.

The British monarchy has been able to keep the level of perversion associated with their unjustified position relatively low and has thus remained both relatively acceptable to the masses and a genuine boon to the economy of the UK. I think these are settings where it is justifiable to keep them in place. In other countries such as Australia the monarchy represent the stable alternative to a number of competing republican models, so until those models are sorted out their continuing position is also somewhat justified.

It seems to me that if you are to argue for the continuation of the monarchy you must argue that although their position is unjust and inequal the level of perversion associated with that inequality is relatively low and that either the alternative is substantially worse in some way or that there is a cost in transitioning to an alternative that exceeds the value of the transition.

I'm an Australian republican in the sense that I see no basis for keeping the Queen of Australia in place, and I don't see Charles becoming King of Australia as being anything anyone really wants. That said, I don't want the political system of Australia to change at all, and that puts me at odds with other republicans. I'm more or less happy to keep the Queen in place until the country is ready to make a forward step together.

I think the case in England specifically is different, in that the monarchy does bring real value to the otherwise mundane United Kingdom. To me tradition + popularity + non-perversion + tourism is probably sufficient to justify their continued position in life. That equation doesn't work out in other commonwealth countries, so is not justified in those countries.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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13-06-2012, 09:02 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(13-06-2012 08:34 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  So earmuffs, you seem to be saying that tradition + popularity -> morality. Is that correct?

It seems that if I were to apply your basic notion to other things then we would, for example:
* Want to keep "In god we trust" as the motto of the united states
* Want to keep male circumcision going in the West
* Want to keep plaques in school halls that contain school prayers
*

Do you accept these suggestions?

It seems to me that tradition plus popularity is not sufficient in and of itself to justify keeping something. To me morality is not the outcome of these two things but instead is a necessary input to the formula. If fairness and justness are compromised by a popular tradition then we have every right to call for it to be torn down. The place of the monarchy in many countries is both unfair and unjust.

The British monarchy has been able to keep the level of perversion associated with their unjustified position relatively low and has thus remained both relatively acceptable to the masses and a genuine boon to the economy of the UK. I think these are settings where it is justifiable to keep them in place. In other countries such as Australia the monarchy represent the stable alternative to a number of competing republican models, so until those models are sorted out their continuing position is also somewhat justified.

It seems to me that if you are to argue for the continuation of the monarchy you must argue that although their position is unjust and inequal the level of perversion associated with that inequality is relatively low and that either the alternative is substantially worse in some way or that there is a cost in transitioning to an alternative that exceeds the value of the transition.

I'm an Australian republican in the sense that I see no basis for keeping the Queen of Australia in place, and I don't see Charles becoming King of Australia as being anything anyone really wants. That said, I don't want the political system of Australia to change at all, and that puts me at odds with other republicans. I'm more or less happy to keep the Queen in place until the country is ready to make a forward step together.

I think the case in England specifically is different, in that the monarchy does bring real value to the otherwise mundane United Kingdom. To me tradition + popularity + non-perversion + tourism is probably sufficient to justify their continued position in life. That equation doesn't work out in other commonwealth countries, so is not justified in those countries.
No, I'm saying tradition + popularity = tradition.

Tradition isn't about money. This is not some financial equation.
It's not about tourism dollars v upkeep.

This is about where a country comes from, a countries history.

It has nothing to do with religion. They are two separate things.

Tradition is about saying that is where I come from. Religion is about saying this is what I believe.
Belief can change, where you come from is set in stone. Whether you like it or not that is where you were
born, or that is where your ancestors come from or whatever.

Quote: Want to keep plaques in school halls that contain school prayers
I don't have a problem with that. Here all public schools have a minister assigned to them who comes in on formal occasions like once a year and says a prayer.
I don't have a problem with this, I personally are opposed to the belief system (Anglican here) but understand that when British colonialists arrived that Anglican became the dominate religion. They set up their Anglican schools etc..
That is tradition. I'm opposed to the belief but recognize it's part of my countries history and can respect that.

Quote: their position is unjust and inequal
How? Because they were born more well off then most people? Is being opposed to the Monarchy more then just a wealth jealousy thing to you people?
I say it again, what makes you better then the starving person in Africa? Nothing, you just happened to be born into a western country.

Quote: In other countries such as Australia the monarchy represent the stable
alternative to a number of competing republican models, so until those
models are sorted out their continuing position is also somewhat
justified.
You're so opposed to them, but you can't live without them. I chuckled.

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13-06-2012, 10:02 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(13-06-2012 08:24 PM)Tharozin Wrote:  
(11-06-2012 08:50 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  But its tradition. And most people in western countries are christian so I'm sure they would be in favor of it.
I'm sorry, what? You've got to be joking, right?
read the rest of this thread. i was using his own argument that tradition and popularity is a good enough reason to keep an outdated system. by giving an example of another outdated system that would most likely be popular and is certainly traditional to show how his argument isn't a good one.

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13-06-2012, 10:37 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(13-06-2012 10:02 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 08:24 PM)Tharozin Wrote:  I'm sorry, what? You've got to be joking, right?
read the rest of this thread. i was using his own argument that tradition and popularity is a good enough reason to keep an outdated system. by giving an example of another outdated system that would most likely be popular and is certainly traditional to show how his argument isn't a good one.
But in doing so forgetting that there is a difference between religion and tradition.

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14-06-2012, 05:16 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(13-06-2012 08:05 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote: Even if something is tradition and is popular with a majority. it doesn't mean its worth keeping.
Yes it is.
No, it's not.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2012, 06:59 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(13-06-2012 10:37 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(13-06-2012 10:02 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  read the rest of this thread. i was using his own argument that tradition and popularity is a good enough reason to keep an outdated system. by giving an example of another outdated system that would most likely be popular and is certainly traditional to show how his argument isn't a good one.
But in doing so forgetting that there is a difference between religion and tradition.
It's not when religion is part of tradition. part of a country's history. Then there is no distinction they are one and the same.

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