Get ready for the Jubilee
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17-06-2012, 06:40 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(16-06-2012 08:42 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-06-2012 09:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  Throwing Christians to the lions was traditional and popular.
Sacrificing virgins to the volcano god was traditional and popular.
Infant genital mutilation is traditional and popular.

Need I go on?
Yeah, and the Queen is traditional and popular, what's your point?
My point is that you answered this question:
Quote:Quote: Even if something is tradition and is popular with a majority. it doesn't mean its worth keeping.
With:
Quote:Yes it is.
And my (outlandish) examples show that traditional and popular are not sufficient reasons in and of themselves.

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17-06-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(17-06-2012 06:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-06-2012 08:42 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yeah, and the Queen is traditional and popular, what's your point?
My point is that you answered this question:
Quote:Quote: Even if something is tradition and is popular with a majority. it doesn't mean its worth keeping.
With:
Quote:Yes it is.
And my (outlandish) examples show that traditional and popular are not sufficient reasons in and of themselves.
They are reason to keep them.
Sure the Monarchy may not be around 200years from now, but for now, it is. It is traditional and popular currently, just like your examples WERE traditional and popular at the time they were around.
Same thing.

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17-06-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(17-06-2012 04:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It is traditional and popular currently, just like your examples WERE traditional and popular at the time they were around.
Same thing.

Which is exactly what we've been saying. Just because something is popular and traditional is not a good reason to keep something.

It doesn't matter if the thing is religion or the monarchy. Tradition and popularity isn't a good enough reason to keep something going. We've both gave examples of things that were both popular and traditional that are either no longer continued or we wouldn't like to be brought back despite being popular or traditional (religious stuff) Things that you wouldn't like continued. But you stick to the tradition and popularity argument being a good reason to continue something when its not good enough for something else that's traditional.

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17-06-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(17-06-2012 05:38 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(17-06-2012 04:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It is traditional and popular currently, just like your examples WERE traditional and popular at the time they were around.
Same thing.

Which is exactly what we've been saying. Just because something is popular and traditional is not a good reason to keep something.

It doesn't matter if the thing is religion or the monarchy. Tradition and popularity isn't a good enough reason to keep something going. We've both gave examples of things that were both popular and traditional that are either no longer continued or we wouldn't like to be brought back despite being popular or traditional (religious stuff) Things that you wouldn't like continued. But you stick to the tradition and popularity argument being a good reason to continue something when its not good enough for something else that's traditional.
EXACTLY, "wouldn't like to be brought back". They lost popularity.
80% of England support the Monarchy.
Hence forth, I rest my case. Good day sirs.

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17-06-2012, 07:31 PM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(17-06-2012 07:08 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  EXACTLY, "wouldn't like to be brought back". They lost popularity.
80% of England support the Monarchy.
Hence forth, I rest my case. Good day sirs.

You still seem to be missing the point. We've already said how popularity and tradition isn't a good enough reason to keep something going. Originally you used the tradition argument but seem to have dropped in favor of popularity.

Can you provide the source of that poll? where it was taken in England (the further from London you get the more the monarchy popularity seems to drop). If you want to use popularity as a reason for something. What % of people in your country are believers in a god? if its a high % does that mean it should be made the state religion? should it be mandatory?

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18-06-2012, 03:05 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(17-06-2012 07:31 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  
(17-06-2012 07:08 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  EXACTLY, "wouldn't like to be brought back". They lost popularity.
80% of England support the Monarchy.
Hence forth, I rest my case. Good day sirs.

You still seem to be missing the point. We've already said how popularity and tradition isn't a good enough reason to keep something going. Originally you used the tradition argument but seem to have dropped in favor of popularity.

Can you provide the source of that poll? where it was taken in England (the further from London you get the more the monarchy popularity seems to drop). If you want to use popularity as a reason for something. What % of people in your country are believers in a god? if its a high % does that mean it should be made the state religion? should it be mandatory?
You're missing my points, I'm ignoring yours, we're going round in circles.

And those statistics come from the TV, from the Jubilee commentators. I didn't just make them up if that's what you were implying.
And I will have you know that 34.7% (up 5% from 5 years prior) of my country recognize themselves as having no religion.
Possibly the highest in the world, or at least very high up there.
Religion is a very minute subject here, it is NEVER in the news, Politicians NEVER talk about it and in fact I bet the majority of our population doesn't even know that our Prime Minister is Jewish.
We are a very diverse religious people. In fact I can give you the numbers...
55.5% related to the Christian religion (down 5% from 5 years prior)
Of that, around 550,000 Anglicans, 500,000 Catholics, 400,000 Presbyterians (out of the around 2million 55.5%)(4.5million total population).
And then Muslims have like 80,000 people, and Hindu's are at like 80,000 as well and it's all pretty spread out.
And this was in 2006! Christians likely don't even make up 50% anymore.
So no, it shouldn't be made mandatory. Not only is it not popular but at the rate at which Christianity in this country is shrinking not to mention the general vibe/culture of this country it wouldn't only be not popular but there would be an uproar.

And like I said, you say for me to listen to you but you're not listening to me so why should I listen to you, a persons beliefs are different to a persons heritage.

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19-06-2012, 06:27 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2012 06:31 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(18-06-2012 03:05 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And those statistics come from the TV, from the Jubilee commentators. I didn't just make them up if that's what you were implying.
No not atall, i asked out of curiousity

(18-06-2012 03:05 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And like I said, you say for me to listen to you but you're not listening to me so why should I listen to you, a persons beliefs are different to a persons heritage.

We are talking about tradition. It doesn't matter what the tradition is about, religion, monarchy, human sacrifice etc. The content was used as an example of why continuing something just for the sake of it is pointless. But you can't seem to pick a side. Tradition isn't a good enough reason to keep something when its something you personally don't agree with.
but as soon as its something you are mindlessly in favor of (the monarchy) then its a good argument for keeping it. When talking about tradition for the sake of tradition there is no distinction.

You've also claim they are a symbol? but with no explanation as to what exactly they are a symbol of.

I have been listening to you. but you've made it clear you aren't reading mines. Maybe if you would read what me and chas have said instead of sticking with the indoctrinated drivel about they are good because they are a symbol, its our heritage etc (very similar to arguments I've heard about religion. Its symbolic, its part of our heritage, it made the western world etc) then we wouldn't be going in circles.

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20-06-2012, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2012 08:27 AM by earmuffs.)
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
I've told you what it is a symbol of.
Its a symbol of Britain. Brings out patriotic-ness in people.
Tradition and religion, like I have explained why on more then one occasion now, are different.
You can shrug it off as mindless indoctrination all you want but I stand by that it is different to religion and that the Monarchy should stay because it is loved and an important part of the countries history.

tradition and religion, two completely different concepts hence I can have two completely different opinions.

The Monarchy provides a great service to Britain. They perform official Head of State duties. They represent Britain to the rest to the world (Ask an American about Britain and they'll say "the queen"). They provide a focus for national identity and unity. Provide stability and continuity in times of change and great hardship. Recognize achievement and excellence. Encourage public and voluntary service. They actually provide greater income to the country then they take out. Its what Britain is know for, it's part of their national identity. It would be like Canada chopping down all the maple trees, or America killing all the bald eagles.
If the Monarchy dispersed there would be no common wealth. Which now thinking about would warrant one of my countries most important documents useless, The Treaty of Waitungi (I can guarantee I spelt that wrong, stupid Maori names) which was the treaty between the British crown and the native Maori (probably not a bad thing, I'm sort of racist towards the Maori, but for the sake of public interest this would be bad).
Presidents come and go and are based on their views (conservative, liberal). Monarchies are around for a while. People grow up with them. I mean people remember when Prince whats-his-face was a baby and now he just got married and one day he'll be king. People love that. Nobody cries when a president gets voted out.

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20-06-2012, 08:46 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
(20-06-2012 08:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I've told you what it is a symbol of.
Its a symbol of Britain. Brings out patriotic-ness in people.
Tradition and religion, like I have explained why on more then one occasion now, are different.
You can shrug it off as mindless indoctrination all you want but I stand by that it is different to religion and that the Monarchy should stay because it is loved and an important part of the countries history.
tradition and religion, two completely different concepts hence I can have two completely different opinions.

When religion is part of tradition then they are one and the same.

(20-06-2012 08:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  The Monarchy provides a great service to Britain. They perform official Head of State duties. They represent Britain to the rest to the world (Ask an American about Britain and they'll say "the queen"). They provide a focus for national identity and unity. Provide stability and continuity in times of change and great hardship. Recognize achievement and excellence. Encourage public and voluntary service. They actually provide greater income to the country then they take out. Its what Britain is know for, it's part of their national identity. It would be like Canada chopping down all the maple trees, or America killing all the bald eagles.

So what if its part of our history we've already covered it. Religion is also part of our history going back further than the monarchy. It doesn't make it worth keeping. Both are utterly meaningless things. The history will still be there without them.

(20-06-2012 08:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  If the Monarchy dispersed there would be no common wealth. Which now thinking about would warrant one of my countries most important documents useless, The Treaty of Waitungi (I can guarantee I spelt that wrong, stupid Maori names) which was the treaty between the British crown and the native Maori (probably not a bad thing, I'm sort of racist towards the Maori, but for the sake of public interest this would be bad).

The commonwealth would still exist. Any treaties would still exist. The only way it would affect you is you would be able to elect a head of state.

(20-06-2012 08:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Presidents come and go and are based on their views (conservative, liberal). Monarchies are around for a while. People grow up with them. I mean people remember when Prince whats-his-face was a baby and now he just got married and one day he'll be king. People love that. Nobody cries when a president gets voted out.

Whats your point? Its part of being indoctrinated.

Also why are you racist towards the Maori? it is their country you live in after all.

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20-06-2012, 09:17 AM
RE: Get ready for the Jubilee
Quote: So what if its part of our history we've already covered it. Religion is
also part of our history going back further than the monarchy. It
doesn't make it worth keeping. Both are utterly meaningless things.
Did you not read the rest of what you quoted me saying?

Quote: The commonwealth would still exist. Any treaties would still exist.
No they wouldn't. That's what I am saying. Our treaty is between Crown (Monarchy) and the NZ government. If there is no crown there is no treaty.
And do you seriously think the common wealth will remain without a monarchy? There will be nothing holding countries together like glue so to speak. If there was no Monarchy I know for certain Australia and NZ wouldn't be in the common wealth.

Quote: Whats your point? Its part of being indoctrinated.
My point is that Monarchies are these political (without being political political) people that represent the British people's country much in the same way the President represents America. What I am then saying is, unlike Presidents who are associated with political view points, Monarchies are viewed neutral without that extra baggage and so all people can be proud to say "That's ours". Like take Obama for example. He represents America. But what if you're hard core republican or tea party or whatever? Then you're not proud of Obama representing your country, you don't want him representing our country. Where as the Queen on the other hand is just some sweet old lady who doesn't swing liberal or conservative but just stands for 'Britain'.

Quote: Also why are you racist towards the Maori?
Well where do I start?
- They make up the majority of criminals
- They play the victim of 100year old shit that has already been settled
- They literally get things like scholarships, extra help, special welfare etc.. so many things, handed to them just because they're Maori
- Iwi ("tribes") own a lot of land that the government gave them because the Iwi said they were sacred, but then they go build big industrial things on it
- They make up the large majority of gang membership
- ALL MAORI POLITICIANS ARE FUCKING WANKERS!!. FACT. PERIOD. END OF STORY.
- They are extremely over represented in everything out of fear of being "racist".
- The majority vote for Labour (welfare heavy party). (I vote National, center right).
- They make up the majoirty of beneficiaries
- They are pretty religious, 80% being Christian.

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