Getting down to basics with thesists
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28-04-2014, 07:15 PM
Getting down to basics with thesists
For hundreds of years theists and non-theists have debated a number of topics, things like the origin and nature of the universe, the existence of spirits and souls, the origin and nature of morality, etc... Despite all these discussions, there is still no agreement on these topics and the debates continue. Perhaps the reason for this is that these topics are secondary issues. There seems to be no point in debating secondary issues until the primary differences between theists and non-theists have been discussed.
One of the primary differences between non-theists and theists (actually, all supernatural belief systems) is how each group views the source, nature, and reliability of intuition. The scientific view of intuition is that it is ideas and emotions that come into our conscious mind from our sub-conscious. Joshua Greene, Assistant Professor of Psychology, Harvard University, said, "The relevance of science then is that it can tell us how our ... intuitions work and where they come from." In the scientific view these ideas and emotions are sometimes less than reliable and should be subject to further scrutiny by conscious reasoning. "Education is to a large extent the development of one’s “cognitive” capacities, learning to think in ways that are abstract, effortful, and often either nonintuitive or counterintuitive." (Greene, The Secret Joke of Kant’s Soul)
The supernaturalist view of intuition is that it's source is outside the human brain and that it represents accurate knowledge that is not subject to scrutiny by conscious reasoning. Here's some quotes from various religious sources that show these common beliefs about intuition:

"There’s a third way of knowing, though, that needs no such justification: intuition. In fact, this way of knowing is so foundational that justification is impossible. That’s because knowledge by intuition is not gained by following a series of facts or a line of reasoning to a conclusion. Instead, we know intuitional truth simply by the process of introspection and immediate awareness."
"Intuitional truth doesn’t require a defense—a justification of the steps that brought one to this knowledge--because this kind of truth isn’t a result of reasoning by steps to a conclusion. It’s an obvious truth that no rational person who understands the nature of the issue would deny."
"Intuitional knowledge can’t be 'proved' because, on the level of intuition, no further analysis is possible. Analysis makes the complex simple, but if a thing is already simple, it cannot be broken down further. Once we understand the proposition in question, we just 'see' that the thing is true. It is self-evident after a little reflection."
(Intuition: A Special Way of Knowing by Greg Koukl)

"Intuition is an inner knowing ..."
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/spiritualdi...FHSVu.dpuf
"The role of intuition, as Craig mentions often, is that of knowing some premise to be true rather than showing that premise to be true. Once I understood this principle, along with the value of intuition as knowledge, I have come to recognize its power."
http://www.randyeverist.com/2011/10/role...ition.html

In my belief system, the intuition, or "knowingness," comes from a Higher Power (I call it "God" but the name is unimportant), and the information comes through me, not from me. "
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/one-...eally-know
"Intuition is a gift from God."
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/spiritualdi...FHSVu.dpuf
"Intuition, I believe, is God's voice."
http://www.byregion.net/articles-healers/Sensitive.html
"God does provide guidance through gifts which involve intuition. "
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/deci...gMuHA.dpuf
Q: How would you define the role of “intuition,” from a biblical perspective?
A: I would define intuition from a biblical perspective as “being led by Holy Spirit.”
http://www.berryblessed.org/2013/01/q-a-...rspective/

"It’s a gift that God gives to each of us."
http://www.somethingwithin.com/blog/?cat=100
"There is an intuition which comes from God. ...The Christian who is led by the Spirit of the Risen Christ also enjoys holy intuition (Rom. 8:5-9). "
http://edwardfudge.com/gracemails/intuition.html
"Whenever possible, guidance from such gifts is subjected to the objective test of scripture (I Cor. l4:29; I Cor. l2:l-3; I Jn. 4:l-3). "
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/deci...gMuHA.dpuf
"...one does well to follow such intuitive insights."
http://edwardfudge.com/gracemails/intuition.html
“Intuition ... will guide us unerringly..."
http://lynnrobinson.com/product/divine-i...prosperity

"We do not have to then show a particular intuition as true..."
http://www.randyeverist.com/2011/10/role...ition.html


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Given the above quoted beliefs concerning intuition, is there any reason to discuss secondary issues before resolving this one?
While these beliefs concerning the supernatural quality of intuition may seem set in stone, there is reason to hope that theists may come to accept a naturalist view of intuition. These include:
1. There is evidence that these beliefs are learned:
"It seemed that prayer experts spoke as if what they were learning to do was to take their inner sensory world more seriously,to treat their thoughts and images and sensations as more meaningful, and to blur the line deliberately between what they might once have attributed to an internal cause and what they might now wish to attribute to an external one. That,after all is the point of experiential evangelical spirituality: to experience God—an external presence—interacting with one through phenomena one would ordinarily interpret as internal and often as simply distracting. It seemed as if these experts had learned to identify their own internal sensations as partaking in a spiritual realm that was external to them, even if it was not part of the material world.
http://www.luhrmann.net/wp-content/uploa...rption.pdf
2. Theists will already use critical thinking concerning the intuitions of other religions:
"To believe that something is true merely because you feel it to be so or because you are sincere in your belief does not make it true."
"A standard Mormon response is to resort to the subjective. He insists that he knows the Book of Mormon is true because he has a 'burning in the bosom'. "
(William Lane Craig on Mormons)
3. Theists already accept that their intuitions and senses can be wrong.
Example: When looking up to the sky, all our senses and intuitions tell us we are on a stationary planet at the center of the universe. Yet, we know the planet is actually spininng on it's axis at hundreds of miles per hour and orbiting the sun at thousands of miles per hour.

These beliefs about the supernatural nature of intuition raise a number of questions in the minds of those who use their critical thinking skills. Perhaps you all would post your questions here? And, of course, any theists are welcome to address them!
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28-04-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
Your belief system is not materially different from most major eastern religions.





If I take a copper pipe and try to stick a fridge magnet to it, what does your intuition say will happen?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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28-04-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
What questions? Intuition isn't knowledge or facts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2014, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 08:06 PM by sporehux.)
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(28-04-2014 07:15 PM)avalon Wrote:  For hundreds of years theists and non-theists have debated a number of topics, things like the origin and nature of the universe, the existence of spirits and souls, the origin and nature of morality, etc... Despite all these discussions, there is still no agreement on these topics and the debates continue. Perhaps the reason for this is that these topics are secondary issues. There seems to be no point in debating secondary issues until the primary differences between theists and non-theists have been discussed.

You cant start at woo and hope to reach a compromise.
The real primary issue is we have naturalistic explanations backed by falsifiable testing for your so called secondary issues
Theists deny, ignore and lie about (its ok if its for god) evidence for the secondary issues to support their dogma.
the overwhelming amount tangible evidence for the natural world invalidates the claims of theism.

Atheists simply go back until the evidence runs out and humbly say I don't know , lets investigate, theists want to start their argument here where faith is all you need.

One striking observation is that an Atheist will police themselves vigorously over dishonest claims, where as the theists knowingly perpetuate dishonesty and support others that also do it in the name of god.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-04-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
Your "intuition" doesn't know shit.

Subjective personal experience is not compelling, and naive physical intuition is the most stunningly inadequate way of learning about reality imaginable.

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28-04-2014, 08:03 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
Intuition is just a theist word meaning "a wild stab in the dark"...

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28-04-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(28-04-2014 08:03 PM)Sam Wrote:  Intuition is just a theist word meaning "a wild stab in the dark"...

Methinks not. I understand what you mean in the context of this thread, but intuition is a source for creativity, for ideas.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2014, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 08:11 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
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You cite a shitload of theist snake-oil-salesmen's fucking BLOG POSTS and think you are convincing?


No. FUCK no. Facepalm



What, are you Captain Lubitron's twin?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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28-04-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
You can program Ai to have intuition.
Add variables for the causality of past, present and predicted events based on environmental interaction and voilà !, human like intuition, no god required. And although intelligently designed, the process is copied from the scientific understanding of the human mind.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-04-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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