Getting down to basics with thesists
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29-04-2014, 06:51 AM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 06:23 AM)avalon Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  That's definitely a question for KC.

No wait, I can answer... the theist doesn't.
Nor does the thesist Dodgy

They seem to equate the two and not recognise the former.

That's the end of my theistic thesis.

Then how would they explain Craig's comments concerning Mormons?
"To believe that something is true merely because you feel it to be so or because you are sincere in your belief does not make it true."
"A standard Mormon response is to resort to the subjective. He insists that he knows the Book of Mormon is true because he has a 'burning in the bosom'. "
(William Lane Craig on Mormons)

Heartburn?

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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29-04-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 02:25 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I think we're misunderstanding what Avalon is getting at here, although I may be wrong because the tone of the post suggests that there is a real debate to have when there isn't.

What I got from the post is that we first have to convince theists that their intuition is actually coming from their own brain and isn't inspiration from God or some other external source of woo.

It's a good point, although we have plenty of examples of people turned onto science and critical thinking by showing them scientific evidence and pointing out the logical inconsistencies of their beliefs. Then the belief that their intuition comes from a source external to the brain starts to crumble.

Thank you, Mathilda! You're dead on.
What we atheists need to understand is that theists have a very different meaning for the word "intuition". I had always assumed they understood it the same way I did (subconscious thoughts generated by the brain, a hypothesis in need of verification). Once I read what they really think of intuition I realized there was no point in debating other topics. If their intuition was considered a divine, infallible, source of accurate information; why would they listen to my 'merely-human' reasoning? If the theists admits to the possibility of all their intuitions coming from their own brain, it levels the playing field and allows our arguments to carry real weight. But until they do, we atheists are in effect debating with "the voice of God".

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance---
it is the illusion of knowledge."
~Daniel Boorstin, Librarian of Congress, 1984

No. you do that and you will be stuck in an infinite Drichian circle-jerk. You lend their bald assertion credence that it doesn't deserve and you will get nowhere. Just look at any thread D-Wreck posts in to see ghis for yourself.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
Intuition is actually based on senses and observations/subconscious thinking or reasoning.
So basically, intuition is a Inference, but you don't consciously think about it...
Maybe? Undecided

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29-04-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 02:25 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I think we're misunderstanding what Avalon is getting at here, although I may be wrong because the tone of the post suggests that there is a real debate to have when there isn't.

What I got from the post is that we first have to convince theists that their intuition is actually coming from their own brain and isn't inspiration from God or some other external source of woo.

It's a good point, although we have plenty of examples of people turned onto science and critical thinking by showing them scientific evidence and pointing out the logical inconsistencies of their beliefs. Then the belief that their intuition comes from a source external to the brain starts to crumble.

Thank you, Mathilda! You're dead on.
What we atheists need to understand is that theists have a very different meaning for the word "intuition". I had always assumed they understood it the same way I did (subconscious thoughts generated by the brain, a hypothesis in need of verification). Once I read what they really think of intuition I realized there was no point in debating other topics. If their intuition was considered a divine, infallible, source of accurate information; why would they listen to my 'merely-human' reasoning? If the theists admits to the possibility of all their intuitions coming from their own brain, it levels the playing field and allows our arguments to carry real weight. But until they do, we atheists are in effect debating with "the voice of God".

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance---
it is the illusion of knowledge."
~Daniel Boorstin, Librarian of Congress, 1984


Intuition of any definition is not evidence. In their eyes, if they get you stuck haggling over it (or anything else), they have won the debate.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  What we atheists need to understand is that theists have a very different meaning for the word "intuition".
How does this help us though? Aside from contributing to a better understanding of their position, is there a practical benefit? I can't see arguing over intuition because it would amount to a "intuition is divinely given" vs. "no it isn't" stalemate argument. Is there something else you are suggesting we can do with this?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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29-04-2014, 01:43 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 12:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  What we atheists need to understand is that theists have a very different meaning for the word "intuition".
How does this help us though? Aside from contributing to a better understanding of their position, is there a practical benefit? I can't see arguing over intuition because it would amount to a "intuition is divinely given" vs. "no it isn't" stalemate argument. Is there something else you are suggesting we can do with this?

I don't see it as a 'he-said, she said' argument. There are a number of valid questions concerning this basic belief that come to mind. Asking these of a believer may cause them to consider why they believe these things.

I'm genuinely curious about why theists believe this about their intuitions. In my experience, most have never considered the implications of such a belief. By asking them how this works, generally one of two things happens: either they start to examine and think about the basis of their beliefs; or such questions cause them to shut down and run away. Generally, it's the former (they start to think!).

I should point out that this applies to more than just theists. I have new-age friends who make similar claims about consciousness. They claim the brain acts like a receiver for consciousness rather than a generator of it. Same questions apply.

The whole point is to get people to think about why they believe what they do. Discussing that may make bring them to the realization that they don't have any good reasons.
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29-04-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Getting down to basics with thesists
(29-04-2014 12:41 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  What we atheists need to understand is that theists have a very different meaning for the word "intuition".
How does this help us though? Aside from contributing to a better understanding of their position, is there a practical benefit? I can't see arguing over intuition because it would amount to a "intuition is divinely given" vs. "no it isn't" stalemate argument. Is there something else you are suggesting we can do with this?

I do think these differences are important to understand. Quite often two groups of people have a "debate" or "discussion" where their arguments seem completely sound, yet make absolutely no impact on the other side. Often both sides reach completely different conclusions based on the same arguments and the same set of facts. Typically, the underlying problem turns out to be a fundamental difference in understanding of the nature of the basic principles involved.

Any discussion of proof is doomed to failure if both sides have a different understanding of what proof is. We all know of stories where a devastating logical argument against faith ends with the believer more strongly convinced of their position than ever before. That is inexplicable, unless you understand how they relate to intuition. If your argument is logically sound, yet their intuition strongly rejects it, they interpret that as further proof of their correctness. Understanding that is perhaps the first step to finding a way to negate it, and at the very lest helps identify discussions you can't win because you aren't arguing logic.
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