Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
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19-10-2013, 03:25 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(19-10-2013 03:19 AM)Vlad Wrote:  On the subject of sleep paralysis. One of my lieutenants had experienced it once, and thought he was seeing a demon (a long haired black woman was sitting on him, apparently) until I explained to him what it really was. He understood, and was somewhat relieved and even told me to explain it to his friends who didn't believe him... yet insisted that it was a real demon. I really don't get it. Then some of my fellow soldiers came up with their own explanations. Two girls thought it was karma for something bad he did (like not observing the Shabbat...), and another tried to release bad energies from his body using crystals.

By the way, about ghosts. They can move things, right? So how come you don't see a ghost picking up a pen and writing something? Why does it always have to be a glass which needs to be moved across a board with letters written on it?

It is a bit messy when you get to supernatural myths, but generally ghosts are not able to directly affect the physical world. This is usually the given distinction between a ghost and a poltergeist, itself from German which roughly translates as 'noisy spirit'. Some say poltergeists are ghosts as well, some say no, there is some distinction between a 'ghost' and a 'spirit'.

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19-10-2013, 04:00 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(19-10-2013 03:19 AM)Vlad Wrote:  On the subject of sleep paralysis. One of my lieutenants had experienced it once, and thought he was seeing a demon (a long haired black woman was sitting on him, apparently) until I explained to him what it really was.

When I first experienced sleep paralysis I thought it was a demon or something of the sort. It did feel like something pushing on my chest, I guess that might be common too, he interpreted it as someone sitting on him. It is a lot like being held down, but every single muscle is held down. The inability to move or talk while being able to see is crazy. It would be an interesting experience if not for the presence that I felt in the room, just felt pure evil. That made it the worst experience ever. It has happened to me four/five times now.

2.5 billion seconds total
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19-10-2013, 07:36 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(19-10-2013 03:19 AM)Vlad Wrote:  On the subject of sleep paralysis. One of my lieutenants had experienced it once, and thought he was seeing a demon (a long haired black woman was sitting on him, apparently) until I explained to him what it really was. He understood, and was somewhat relieved and even told me to explain it to his friends who didn't believe him... yet insisted that it was a real demon. I really don't get it. Then some of my fellow soldiers came up with their own explanations. Two girls thought it was karma for something bad he did (like not observing the Shabbat...), and another tried to release bad energies from his body using crystals.

By the way, about ghosts. They can move things, right? So how come you don't see a ghost picking up a pen and writing something? Why does it always have to be a glass which needs to be moved across a board with letters written on it?

This is very interesting. Could this be the very origin of a belief in demons? In ancient times they would have no way of knowing that it had nothing to do with outside the body. I'm sure they would use many folk cures, possibly even creating them to deal with such an aliment. As I said before there has always been described a type of a demon that would sit on you, they would feel a weight on them. Heres a paintingBig Grin
[Image: tumblr_lq4pf4BPsa1qggdq1.jpg]
The Nightmare (1781), Henry Fuseli
This is usually a classic reference to sleep paralysis.

Poltergeist, they say it usually is actually a person unknowingly causing the disturbances. Like they have have a telekinetic ability that usually shows up during puberty. I am wary of such videos, not sure if it actually happens face to face and it seems kinda mundane. Objects arranging themselves behind close doors or dishes falling out of cabinets usually occurring without witnessing after the fact. Someone built a special type of machine and in the room it was placed everything moved. Boxes of food and spoons and well everything moved and jumped. I think the theory was that everything was inherently magnetic. They were even able to levitate a frog with some sort of machine.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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19-10-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
[Image: Hagrid.jpg]

Now don't you be givin' the reason behind my name! Angry

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19-10-2013, 08:12 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
It would be very easy to believe that sleep paralysis with hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations involved ghosts or demons if you were inclined to believe in such things and had no prior knowledge of what sleep paralysis is. I've had episodes of it my entire life, usually quite scary. The earliest I remember was that my quilt (it was very heavy) had grown skeletal hands and was strangling me. I had this happen all the time when I was working night shifts in a convenience store in my early 20s, because my sleep schedule was fucked. I had one that was not scary; I couldn't move, and I hallucinated my roommate opening my door, walking into my room, and placing a packet of cigarettes on my forehead. Then she left. Then I hallucinated a hole my bedroom wall, through which I could see her pacing back and forth while talking on the phone. There is no possible way this actually happened, it was a hallucination (the cigarettes weren't really there). ^_^

Anyway, interesting phenomenon and it's not surprising that people in the past (and in the present, I'm sure) would attribute it to supernatural causes.
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19-10-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(19-10-2013 08:12 AM)amyb Wrote:  It would be very easy to believe that sleep paralysis with hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations involved ghosts or demons if you were inclined to believe in such things and had no prior knowledge of what sleep paralysis is. I've had episodes of it my entire life, usually quite scary. The earliest I remember was that my quilt (it was very heavy) had grown skeletal hands and was strangling me. I had this happen all the time when I was working night shifts in a convenience store in my early 20s, because my sleep schedule was fucked. I had one that was not scary; I couldn't move, and I hallucinated my roommate opening my door, walking into my room, and placing a packet of cigarettes on my forehead. Then she left. Then I hallucinated a hole my bedroom wall, through which I could see her pacing back and forth while talking on the phone. There is no possible way this actually happened, it was a hallucination (the cigarettes weren't really there). ^_^

Anyway, interesting phenomenon and it's not surprising that people in the past (and in the present, I'm sure) would attribute it to supernatural causes.

When I was about 13 or so I considered the possibility that aliens were telekineticly suppressing me. In one of my more vivid and memorable experiences I had I could not move, though with great difficulty I hallucinated that I used all my might to roll off my bed, hoping to hit the floor and end the experience. What happened instead was I hallucinated that about 1/4 of an inch above the floor, face down I just stopped and hovered. Then I began to spin, with my head remaining in the same relative position and my body spinning counter clockwise for what felt like several minutes and I was powerless to stop it, just staring at the ground and wishing it would stop. The entire time I felt a presence nearby that was observing me...no, that isn't correct exactly, more like a piercing gaze in the center of my back which I could sense. That was one of the scariest ones for me.

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19-10-2013, 11:18 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
The supernatural and creepy shit that most everyone will experience in his or her lifetime is only the result of your body telling you to get the fuck out of a creepy ass place.

It is akin to the feeling that someone is behind you when creepy music is played, or if you generally feel creeped out.

It is better to look behind yourself then to stay paralyzed, so your body tempts you to turn around and face the suspected specter, only for you to see that there is nothing.

Your mind plays tricks on you.
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19-10-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
I once knew a psychologist who specialized in dreams. I picked his brain a little, and one thing he said that in the case of a bad nightmare or any experience while you are asleep, you can call in a friend (dad, superman, Mr. Spock, you name it, we are in dreamland here) to help you. He said merely knowing that this can be done will enable you to do it next time, and then you will be empowered to finish the dream up according to YOUR wishes. All you need to do is to decide now whom you're going to call in the future when shit happens.

I tried this and it does work. Didn't work with some specific dreams, but it worked in general. Try it sometime, it's just your brain producing this stuff, you can take the lead.

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19-10-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
^ I used to be quite obsessed with lucid dreaming, which sort of relates because people usually attempt to change what's happening while doing it. I've attempted to fly, etc. but I'm apparently not very good at it. Anyway, I now realize that I am dreaming any time I see a number in a dream. Sometimes a clock, a watch, a phone, prices on a restaurant menu.

I've never had a large problem with nightmares though.

Quote:, you can call in a friend (dad, superman, Mr. Spock, you name it, we are in dreamland here) to help you.
Last night I actually had a nightmare about being back in college, and a guy across the table from me had a bad infestation of bot flies. He was able to press on his arm and aim them, they'd coming shooting out of his skin and he was terrorizing everyone. for some reason I went out searching for Captain Kirk and found him at the end of a hallway; I wanted him to tell the bot fly dude to knock it the fuck off. I fell asleep while watching Star Trek, so I could probably still hear it in my dreams.

As for sleep paralysis though, the vast majority of episodes I had involved short little things like Star Wars jawas, and they would just stand around my bed staring at me and I would be pretty freaked out. Sometimes it wasn't even visual, just a sort of "presence" in the room. I've read somewhere that sleeping on your back can increase the chances of this happening, and I've found that to be true in my experience. Having a disturbed sleep schedule is usually involved, too. I find it pretty interesting, if a bit freaky.

Quote:Your mind plays tricks on you.
But no one believes you when you tell them that. It's always "I know what I saw/felt." I think a lot of people just really,really want to believe and will latch on to any flimsy "evidence."
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19-10-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(16-10-2013 05:10 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Let's assume the soul exists, and that this GDV technique can expose it. What do we learn from the above? Apparently they've trapped people, killed them when they least expected it, and monitored their corpses for several days with the GDV technique to see what would happen.

This can't possibly sound legit to anyone. Like seriously Luminion. In a video of him he questions whether we are conscious in sleep. Is he actually on crack? I don't know about you but I'm quite unconscious in my sleep. Quite.
I thought that being semi-conscious in one's sleep is a very conservative statement. What the hell, dolphins can sleep with only half of their brain! The brain is never 100 % alpha, beta, delta or gamma waves. It may mix some alpha or beta waves into the sleep. There may be lucid dreaming. The brain has phases in sleep when it's working harder than most of the day! Being aware in a dream is probably a matter of training, sometimes a coincidence.

No, I don't think Korotkov kills people. The existence of something like a "soul" is actually a very important information for medicine and physics. It must be made of something and must perform some neurological or biological function. Besides psychology, stuff like elimination of fear of death.

And, one i, please Smile

(16-10-2013 03:59 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  An open mind? Sure I'm looking. All I see is a four year old article that was quoted in the first video you posted. No attached photo of the claimed picture of the soul. Convenient. Lots of edited pictures though. Why you didn't catch on to this, I'm curious. Confirmation bias?

"Scientists using the GDV technique say that the aura of those who die unexpectedly or violently differs from those who experience a calm death. The souls of the former remain in a state of confusion for several days and return frequently to their bodies, especially at night."

They went from taking a photo of a soul to understanding the state of mind (that such a thing exists is amusing) of the soul in different death scenarios? Does it come back as a ghost if it has unfinished business too?
What the GDV technique is measuring is called "etheric body". It is well-known in occult literature and some traditions and it is not actually considered a "soul" in any sense, but a counterpart of the biologic body, a template for it. It is the template into which cells grow and which underlies all our nerve system. It may survive some time after death, but not for long. It's eschatological potential is very limited, but its medical application is extremely high.
The actual "soul" looks a bit different. The etheric body works directly in response to what is usually understood as the "soul", its energy is the input to etheric body, but it's correspondingly more difficult to measure, if we don't even know the etheric body that well.

Btw, at korotkov.org you can find news from 2013 and claims that the papers are published in peer-reviewed journals. Worth checking out.

(16-10-2013 03:59 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  Doesn't the fetus looks like a reptile/amphibian early on, rather a bit like a seahorse with no snout? I did not know this had been debunked. Someone knowledgeable in this area might be able to clarify.

Some kind of channel? I hate to ask you to clarify again but it's hard to look into what you say if your not specific. This might be good stuff to have written down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

By the way, if that interests you, you'd do well to study it yourself. As I said, you can go with Fleck's book if you are very concerned, but if you want easier reading, pick the Kuhn's book.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/...15917.html
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5857529M/...ns./borrow

(16-10-2013 03:59 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  My opinion is that uncertainty is a natural part of science. I'd say uncertainty is a hallmark quality that makes science stand out among the various groups on the planet, scientists accept uncertainty. I'm inclined to agree that not everyone in a said field is familiar with every nook and cranny of that field. However I'd be damned if anyone with a degree in a particular field couldn't give you a fly by explanation of a theory in that field and it's supporting evidence, especially when it's the area they specialize in. It's just crap they have to have learned in order for them to be in the position they are in now.

Any biologist can explain the theory of evolution, the genetic connection between all living things, the fossil samples, ect.

Any physicist can walk you through inflationary cosmology, the microwave background, the distancing of most galaxies.

Naturally the group that is studying a specific phenomena will be one of the most knowledgeable of it, that's a given. Does this mean other groups can't study the phenomena, look over the results, and re-run the tests? As far as I'm concerned experiments are run by at least one other group before anything is said to be confirmed.
People can give you a flyby example, what they know. But they can't take something I know and take it seriously, try to express it in better words. So far I haven't met a scientist who could work with terminology outside of his field. I think it has to do with adopted thought-style that one is unable to change. This is a problem with natural science, it has only one paradigm at a time (sociology has several) and not only it limits communication, it also limits imagination. Scientists who encounter someone speaking about real phenomena not in the thought style of their group, but in common or even religious language, depreciate the phenomenon. If let's say a medieval hermit would see a modern space shuttle launch, he'd describe it as something from Ezechiel, or as some nonsense like "a fire of St. Anthony!" And a natural scientist is guaranteed to skip St Anthony's hagiography to figure out the figurative and pictorial reference to the fire.

So basically, scientists can speak, but they can not listen. By definition, they are a closed group, because nobody outside their group produces the kind of data in the language that they need. Call me a modern heretical feely goody karma hippie, but I think when someone speaks, one should also listen. Why? Firstly, because there may be natural phenomena that get detected by people an so we need social science skills to learn about them.
Secondly, because the future belongs to scientific generalists and they are going to need some social sciences. Specialists, especially natural science specialists, are dangerous. People who convert money to nuclear bombs. So they need humanities to understand why that is a bad idea and humanities are inherently multi-paradigmatic and you need to use some common language and good semantics to switch between the paradigms.

(16-10-2013 03:59 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  That being said there can be different interpretations of theories. On the edge of science there naturally are always different interpretations, that is until some data gets collected and presented that makes one version stand out among the rest. There is always room to confirm or falsify (I literally can't state this enough). When the microwave background was detected and the big bang validated, it was unknown whether the universe was expanding or contracting. But we knew the universe wasn't static, a beginning rules out a static universe. Then Hubble collected data that suggested the universe was expanding. Great, so is it slowing down or speeding up? More data yield the answer to that question.

The point being, the theories in place now are there for a reason, all the data collected thus far points in that direction. When more data is brought in, things can be refined. Does this mean we were wrong in the past? Not necessarily wrong, but we may just be getting more accurate answers.

Newton's law of gravity works perfectly fine, NASA uses it all the time. General Relativity simplifies to it when used in scenarios Newton's law could deal with. All it does is expand the range of phenomena that can be explained. Is it wrong to say Pi is 3.14? how about 3.14159? At what point is it wrong if it represents what we observe in reality? (The observation being the compared lengths between the diameter and the circumference of a circle).

I went on a bit of a rant, but I hope I was able to communicate my point.
It's clear, but it's not the problem. What I meant has more to do with formation of hypotheses, underlying assumptions about reality, what direction of research to take, what is possible, what is impossible, what should or shouldn't be done. Fleck uses the disease of syphilis as an example, for centuries people thought it's the same, it was probably carried from south America and it was known to be not so dangerous there. Only eventually it became such an embarrassment to the society (usually the best known people got insane, disfigured and died from it - political leaders and artists) so that a group of scientists was prompted to get together and study it.

Yes, there is a strong empirical element in scientific community, but how, if and on what is this empiricism used, that is very much a social process of fallible people.

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