Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
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23-10-2013, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2013 03:54 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(22-10-2013 09:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I don't get the "one paradigm at a time" , that would only apply to one particular project at a time, and hundreds of teams could be working on a similar project at a time with radically different paradigms.
What they publish may be of an accepted paradigm, but there are no science police to forbid out of box methods in getting there.
You'd do well to read what a paradigm is. Paradigm is usually what we imagine as examples of doing real science.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm

I know about a science that is on the verge of this paradigm and the next one. I've passed it forward to Cjlr for the moment. But I also know about what appears to be a science of the new paradigm and it blows my mind, if the info is true. I can not wrap my mind around that, I can't disprove it, actually it seems
coherent with what I know, but I know too little. I can see I'm out of my depth on that one and perhaps even most real physicists would. It seems simple and there are books, but I'd rather wait and see that one. I can do better work elsewhere.

(22-10-2013 09:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I've never wondered why scientists never see supernatural things
And Astronomers never see flying saucers.
It might be the same reason why I don't see my socks sometimes or I have to search for my keys at the same spot for four times before I manage to see them. It's not in my paradigm, so I don't see it. Welcome to the world of a male brain.
Yes, astronomers may see flying saucers sometimes (or more precisely, flying wingless silver cigars and strange lights) but if they aren't in their superiors' paradigm, one wants to keep his job and payrise prospects, respect of the peers, family, expert public, and privacy from tabloids.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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23-10-2013, 04:26 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2013 04:45 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(20-10-2013 02:27 AM)Chippy Wrote:  You are exactly what I have referred to in some of my posts, namely, an atheist that believes in pseudoscience and superstition. You are evidence of my thesis that even if all of the major religions were wiped from the face of the planet we would still be mired in other forms of superstition and institutionalised stupidity.

http://www.esotericscience.org is pseudoscientific bullshit as are your posts. There is as much evidence of ghosts and souls as there is of gnomes.
I'm more than that. An atheist agnostic with a very unusual nerve system and perception. I am more sensitive in certain ways than an average person and more trained to be sensitive. That allows me to make observations, a lifetime of observations, really. Then I try to make sense of the observations, through literature and an experiment where possible. Turns out lots of this stuff is well-known and described in depth in occult literature, to great detail. There were people like me in many occult and religious traditions.

I don't exactly know what I believe or disbelieve. I don't like the word. For me, everything is a hypothesis with various degrees of certainty, depends on how close it is to good observations or facts. I always keep options open on everything coherent, that's the only way to be sure I don't miss any potential hiding truths. I don't know who said that, but I really like the saying, "A wise one will find the [Philosophers'] Stone in dung, while a fool will not even believe it is in gold."

There are many weird people out there which is probably the kind that you really mean, but they are satisfied with their own field. I am never satisfied with any field in itself. Nothing is good enough in itself. I might value something greatly, but I can only honor a field by criticizing it, bringing in something new. I criticize woo with science and I criticize science with woo. I criticize economy with sociology and sociology with economy. Perhaps there are things you can only know by crossing the borders. Don't worry about me, worry about people who ever stay in one field and think this is all there is.

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23-10-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(23-10-2013 03:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 09:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I've never wondered why scientists never see supernatural things
And Astronomers never see flying saucers.
It might be the same reason why I don't see my socks sometimes or I have to search for my keys at the same spot for four times before I manage to see them. It's not in my paradigm, so I don't see it. Welcome to the world of a male brain.
Yes, astronomers may see flying saucers sometimes (or more precisely, flying wingless silver cigars and strange lights) but if they aren't in their superiors' paradigm, one wants to keep his job and payrise prospects, respect of the peers, family, expert public, and privacy from tabloids.

No, that's not the way it works - except in the minds of the paranoid woo-woo pushers.
That's their paradigm.

If there is something there, it will be explored by scientists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-10-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(23-10-2013 03:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  It might be the same reason why I don't see my socks sometimes or I have to search for my keys at the same spot for four times before I manage to see them. It's not in my paradigm, so I don't see it. Welcome to the world of a male brain.
Sock elves those filthy creatures. I want you to look at this video follow the instructions to the letter and report back.


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24-10-2013, 04:18 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(23-10-2013 04:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, that's not the way it works - except in the minds of the paranoid woo-woo pushers.
That's their paradigm.

If there is something there, it will be explored by scientists.
But when and how fast? Some things just don't get explored, until scientists undergo a scientific revolution, that's how they work, that's what you don't say. Some things never get said, done and financed, until there comes proverbial rolling of heads, or until certain authorities die of old age. Especially small projects, sponsors have a known bias against small projects, because small does not look as much as something is being done. They want big, expensive projects, big reactors and cyclotrons...

The objectivity in science happens under the microscope and in depths of reactors, yet the whole academic community hides in its light, even if it's mostly mere bureaucracy. I as a student of sociology should be able to smell bureaucracy at a distance and I do. I smell bureaucracy gathered around experimenters and experts, doing an important job, but a normal job nonetheless, which does not deserve the same respect as the scientific method itself.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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24-10-2013, 05:31 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(24-10-2013 04:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 04:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, that's not the way it works - except in the minds of the paranoid woo-woo pushers.
That's their paradigm.

If there is something there, it will be explored by scientists.
But when and how fast? Some things just don't get explored, until scientists undergo a scientific revolution, that's how they work, that's what you don't say. Some things never get said, done and financed, until there comes proverbial rolling of heads, or until certain authorities die of old age. Especially small projects, sponsors have a known bias against small projects, because small does not look as much as something is being done. They want big, expensive projects, big reactors and cyclotrons...

The objectivity in science happens under the microscope and in depths of reactors, yet the whole academic community hides in its light, even if it's mostly mere bureaucracy. I as a student of sociology should be able to smell bureaucracy at a distance and I do. I smell bureaucracy gathered around experimenters and experts, doing an important job, but a normal job nonetheless, which does not deserve the same respect as the scientific method itself.

You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(24-10-2013 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 04:18 AM)Luminon Wrote:  But when and how fast? Some things just don't get explored, until scientists undergo a scientific revolution, that's how they work, that's what you don't say. Some things never get said, done and financed, until there comes proverbial rolling of heads, or until certain authorities die of old age. Especially small projects, sponsors have a known bias against small projects, because small does not look as much as something is being done. They want big, expensive projects, big reactors and cyclotrons...

The objectivity in science happens under the microscope and in depths of reactors, yet the whole academic community hides in its light, even if it's mostly mere bureaucracy. I as a student of sociology should be able to smell bureaucracy at a distance and I do. I smell bureaucracy gathered around experimenters and experts, doing an important job, but a normal job nonetheless, which does not deserve the same respect as the scientific method itself.

You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.

Yup, I even have a book about itSmile just a bunch of silly.
How do you feel about Duncan MacDougall lum? Chas you might want to read about him tooTongue

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24-10-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(24-10-2013 03:54 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.

Yup, I even have a book about itSmile just a bunch of silly.
How do you feel about Duncan MacDougall lum? Chas you might want to read about him tooTongue

Yeah, I know about him. Confirmation bias?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(23-10-2013 03:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I know about a science that is on the verge of this paradigm and the next one. I've passed it forward to Cjlr for the moment.

Luminon, you know I love you, but you ain't passed me anything.

(23-10-2013 03:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  But I also know about what appears to be a science of the new paradigm and it blows my mind, if the info is true. I can not wrap my mind around that, I can't disprove it, actually it seems coherent with what I know, but I know too little. I can see I'm out of my depth on that one and perhaps even most real physicists would. It seems simple and there are books, but I'd rather wait and see that one. I can do better work elsewhere.

That. That right there. You can't disprove 'it' (not having ever defined 'it'...). What would?

Scientific investigation is literally impossible without some standard of falsifiability.

(22-10-2013 09:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I've never wondered why scientists never see supernatural things
And Astronomers never see flying saucers.

Scientists see unexplained things. They do not say they are "supernatural" because by definition, a scientific worldview requires that observation follows from knowable causation. To label something as "supernatural" is to state not just that a phenomenon is not understood but that a phenomenon cannot be understood.

This attitude has been shown to be a useful one approximately never in the entire history of all human endeavour.

(23-10-2013 03:40 AM)Luminon Wrote:  It might be the same reason why I don't see my socks sometimes or I have to search for my keys at the same spot for four times before I manage to see them. It's not in my paradigm, so I don't see it. Welcome to the world of a male brain.
Yes, astronomers may see flying saucers sometimes (or more precisely, flying wingless silver cigars and strange lights) but if they aren't in their superiors' paradigm, one wants to keep his job and payrise prospects, respect of the peers, family, expert public, and privacy from tabloids.

Casual sexism much?

I'm'a counter your pessimistically conspiratorial answer with the following: is it not also true that most scientists would dearly love to be the ones to discover something new? Particularly something dramatic? Especially particularly something evolutionary? I mean, as a rule such findings are kind of a big deal.

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24-10-2013, 09:27 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
NO! Absolutely not. Just no
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