Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
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25-10-2013, 02:05 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2013 02:14 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(24-10-2013 03:54 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Yup, I even have a book about itSmile just a bunch of silly.
How do you feel about Duncan MacDougall lum? Chas you might want to read about him tooTongue
It's a very feeble and conservative attempt to detect the etheric body. This experiment was reputedly repeated by scientists in Eastern Germany in the 80's, but that may be a hoax.

In any case, weighing the etheric body is the worst method I can think of. Very materialistic and counter-productive... An educated esotericist would naturally gravitate to the ideas of field or plasma, not something that rests upon the body as weight, but something that is rather hovering suspended in Earth's fields and has very low density and thus does not weigh much, even though it contains much power. I'd say it's plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind, it has electric charge and can be detected easily with electro-static field projectors, skin resistance changes induced at a distance, photon discharge in liquids and it's also outlined by coronary discharge.
It's also not a soul, it's a cellular template that dissolves soon after death, although it is considered more real than the biologic body itself (spiritual correctness Tongue ). It's more interesting for living people and medical purposes. Strictly speaking, it's not a guarantee of afterlife or eternal life, although it is traditionally understood as an interface to it.
Just a few odd non-facts for you from the fascinating world of woo Thumbsup

(24-10-2013 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.
I'd say my view of science is more realistic, because I understand that it is partially a bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is the thing that keeps track of the paper trails left by chunks of money from the government.

Researchers do not understand parapsychology, because the practitioners of parapsychology do not understand it themselves. This is, because researchers did not bother to teach them the scientific method, or perhaps they didn't want to learn. To practice something you don't always need to understand it. Especially when it's that emotional, primitive kind of parapsychology, dependent on emotions and too much cogitation just upsets it.
My kind of "parapsychology" has the dubious advantage of being extremely low level, downright physiologically hard-wired. I still don't quite understand it, but there is not much I could do to upset it, even if I wanted. I can cogitate about it as much as I want. I'd say there is another kind, but it is so rare and useful, that those who have it are too busy doing something more interesting than facing skeptical scientists.

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25-10-2013, 03:07 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(25-10-2013 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 03:54 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Yup, I even have a book about itSmile just a bunch of silly.
How do you feel about Duncan MacDougall lum? Chas you might want to read about him tooTongue
It's a very feeble and conservative attempt to detect the etheric body. This experiment was reputedly repeated by scientists in Eastern Germany in the 80's, but that may be a hoax.

In any case, weighing the etheric body is the worst method I can think of. Very materialistic and counter-productive... An educated esotericist would naturally gravitate to the ideas of field or plasma, not something that rests upon the body as weight, but something that is rather hovering suspended in Earth's fields and has very low density and thus does not weigh much, even though it contains much power. I'd say it's plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind, it has electric charge and can be detected easily with electro-static field projectors, skin resistance changes induced at a distance, photon discharge in liquids and it's also outlined by coronary discharge.
It's also not a soul, it's a cellular template that dissolves soon after death, although it is considered more real than the biologic body itself (spiritual correctness Tongue ). It's more interesting for living people and medical purposes. Strictly speaking, it's not a guarantee of afterlife or eternal life, although it is traditionally understood as an interface to it.
Just a few odd non-facts for you from the fascinating world of woo Thumbsup

(24-10-2013 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.
I'd say my view of science is more realistic, because I understand that it is partially a bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is the thing that keeps track of the paper trails left by chunks of money from the government.

Researchers do not understand parapsychology, because the practitioners of parapsychology do not understand it themselves. This is, because researchers did not bother to teach them the scientific method, or perhaps they didn't want to learn. To practice something you don't always need to understand it. Especially when it's that emotional, primitive kind of parapsychology, dependent on emotions and too much cogitation just upsets it.
My kind of "parapsychology" has the dubious advantage of being extremely low level, downright physiologically hard-wired. I still don't quite understand it, but there is not much I could do to upset it, even if I wanted. I can cogitate about it as much as I want. I'd say there is another kind, but it is so rare and useful, that those who have it are too busy doing something more interesting than facing skeptical scientists.

Oh he did other experiments, one where he said that the soul was made of etherTongue More woo for ya!
Also the governments actually funded research into the paranormal. Remote viewing and also psychic research. The USSR started it than not to be outmatched the US also did it too. Psychic cold war! yeah project star gate!
And you heard of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, right?
Do you honestly think science is best used to find supernatural phenomena? It clearly doesn't affect anything. We don't need ghostbusters, clearly. You also have ghosthunters making their own equipment to "detect" ghosts even if they have no idea what their doing. Using equipment that an electrician has...How would they even know what a ghost was made of to properly detect one? Just because of some batteries that might drain or high emf spikes and coldspots? Don't get me started on EVPs. The photography aspect is laughable, I can make my own orbs and "ectoplasm", without photoshopTongue Hell..that has been done ever since photography was invented. The rest are hoaxes and misidentification, mostly due to pareidolia. There is good reason no one wants to risk their careers or get funding on this. Hey, you now have your God helmet to give you practical answers. That's what I'm interested in. To ask what the soul could be, and what a ghost could be, what near death experiences are, study of the mind is much more important than trying to find casper. We will inevitably have these answers doing real science when we unlock the brain.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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25-10-2013, 07:05 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(25-10-2013 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 03:54 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Yup, I even have a book about itSmile just a bunch of silly.
How do you feel about Duncan MacDougall lum? Chas you might want to read about him tooTongue
It's a very feeble and conservative attempt to detect the etheric body. This experiment was reputedly repeated by scientists in Eastern Germany in the 80's, but that may be a hoax.

In any case, weighing the etheric body is the worst method I can think of. Very materialistic and counter-productive... An educated esotericist would naturally gravitate to the ideas of field or plasma, not something that rests upon the body as weight, but something that is rather hovering suspended in Earth's fields and has very low density and thus does not weigh much, even though it contains much power. I'd say it's plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind, it has electric charge and can be detected easily with electro-static field projectors, skin resistance changes induced at a distance, photon discharge in liquids and it's also outlined by coronary discharge.
It's also not a soul, it's a cellular template that dissolves soon after death, although it is considered more real than the biologic body itself (spiritual correctness Tongue ). It's more interesting for living people and medical purposes. Strictly speaking, it's not a guarantee of afterlife or eternal life, although it is traditionally understood as an interface to it.
Just a few odd non-facts for you from the fascinating world of woo Thumbsup

(24-10-2013 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  You demonstrate my point. Your view of science is skewed.

Researchers have looked into parapsychology and such for over a century and absolutely nothing has been found. There likely isn't anything there to be found.
I'd say my view of science is more realistic, because I understand that it is partially a bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is the thing that keeps track of the paper trails left by chunks of money from the government.

Researchers do not understand parapsychology, because the practitioners of parapsychology do not understand it themselves. This is, because researchers did not bother to teach them the scientific method, or perhaps they didn't want to learn. To practice something you don't always need to understand it. Especially when it's that emotional, primitive kind of parapsychology, dependent on emotions and too much cogitation just upsets it.
My kind of "parapsychology" has the dubious advantage of being extremely low level, downright physiologically hard-wired. I still don't quite understand it, but there is not much I could do to upset it, even if I wanted. I can cogitate about it as much as I want. I'd say there is another kind, but it is so rare and useful, that those who have it are too busy doing something more interesting than facing skeptical scientists.

What are they doing that is useful? Please explain and give evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-10-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(25-10-2013 03:07 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Also the governments actually funded research into the paranormal. Remote viewing and also psychic research. The USSR started it than not to be outmatched the US also did it too. Psychic cold war! yeah project star gate!

This is actually a very good point to raise. During the 60s and 70s the Americans and Soviets were both willing to fund and/or investigate literally anything that might even come close to approaching having any demonstrable effect whatsoever. They didn't find anything. At all.

For this is a scenario which explicitly avoids the otherwise-common "lol conspiracy" explanation of null results. These were people being paid to find results. And they didn't.

(25-10-2013 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  An educated esotericist would naturally gravitate to the ideas of field or plasma, not something that rests upon the body as weight, but something that is rather hovering suspended in Earth's fields and has very low density and thus does not weigh much, even though it contains much power. I'd say it's plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind, it has electric charge and can be detected easily with electro-static field projectors, skin resistance changes induced at a distance, photon discharge in liquids and it's also outlined by coronary discharge.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
that is gibberish.
That is a vague and incoherent jumble of misapplied 'sciencey' words strung together without regard for their proper meanings or contexts. Prose like that, you could've been a scriptwriter for Star Trek: Voyager!

Going before, let us say, a group of physicists and presenting a coherent physical theory that accounts for unexplained (but demonstrable) phenomena will get you listened to.
Presenting them gibberish will get you ignored or ridiculed. The latter is not a fair response, though it is all too common - patience is not inexhaustible. But the former is the only fair response. For there is nothing to consider, or examine, or investigate. There's only gibberish.

(25-10-2013 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  My kind of "parapsychology" has the dubious advantage of being extremely low level, downright physiologically hard-wired. I still don't quite understand it, but there is not much I could do to upset it, even if I wanted. I can cogitate about it as much as I want. I'd say there is another kind, but it is so rare and useful, that those who have it are too busy doing something more interesting than facing skeptical scientists.

In which case the question you must first answer - before any other considerations might be made - is to determine whether your personal, subjective experiences are in fact reflective of anything at all external to yourself.

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25-10-2013, 03:20 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
Oh fuck I just want to talk about other ghosts. Quick brief on the video, Rosangela on the left and Joey(hey that guy looks familiar) on the right are having some off time. Joey is Rosangela's spirit guide who helps her find other ghosts and send them to the otherside. The animation is based on the video game, Blackwell Legacy. Its an adventure game like those of Sierra and Lucasarts fame. Not everyones cup of tea but I love itTongue



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25-10-2013, 07:47 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(25-10-2013 08:56 AM)cjlr Wrote:  This is actually a very good point to raise. During the 60s and 70s the Americans and Soviets were both willing to fund and/or investigate literally anything that might even come close to approaching having any demonstrable effect whatsoever. They didn't find anything. At all.

For this is a scenario which explicitly avoids the otherwise-common "lol conspiracy" explanation of null results. These were people being paid to find results. And they didn't.

Indeed. Susan Blackmore is a case in point. Blackmore entered the field of parapsychology as a true believer and left it some years later disappointed and dejected. There is just nothing there.
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25-10-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(25-10-2013 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  An educated esotericist would naturally gravitate to the ideas of field or plasma, not something that rests upon the body as weight, but something that is rather hovering suspended in Earth's fields and has very low density and thus does not weigh much, even though it contains much power. I'd say it's plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind, it has electric charge and can be detected easily with electro-static field projectors, skin resistance changes induced at a distance, photon discharge in liquids and it's also outlined by coronary discharge.
It's also not a soul, it's a cellular template that dissolves soon after death, although it is considered more real than the biologic body itself (spiritual correctness Tongue ).

Frankfurtian bullshit. This is intellectual charlatanry. Nonsense with a wafer thin pseudoscientific veneer.

Quote:I'd say my view of science is more realistic,

You don't understand the difference between science and pseudoscience.

Quote:Researchers do not understand parapsychology, because the practitioners of parapsychology do not understand it themselves. This is, because researchers did not bother to teach them the scientific method, or perhaps they didn't want to learn.

That doesn't make any sense.

Quote:To practice something you don't always need to understand it. Especially when it's that emotional, primitive kind of parapsychology, dependent on emotions and too much cogitation just upsets it.

Neither does that.

Quote:My kind of "parapsychology" has the dubious advantage of being extremely low level, downright physiologically hard-wired.

So what organs are responsible for producing "plasma of supersymmetric particles of some kind"?

Quote:I still don't quite understand it, but there is not much I could do to upset it, even if I wanted.

???

Quote:I can cogitate about it as much as I want. I'd say there is another kind, but it is so rare and useful, that those who have it are too busy doing something more interesting than facing skeptical scientists.

Literal nonsense.
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26-10-2013, 04:36 AM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2013 04:44 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
This whole talk about ghosts is absolutely ridiculous. It is easy to show that ghosts, as we fear them, can not exist.

What are common features of a ghost, that we can agree upon?
- sometimes it is invisible, sometimes it is visible
- it can pass through objects, interact with objects and can even teleport

Based on these two very simple features, it is already impossible for a ghost to exist:

1) visibility issue: For something to be visible to the human eye, the ghost has to reflect, difract or disperse visible light. For this, it has to consist of matter. Without going into further detail, we can already falsify the claim of a ghost that can switch between visible and unvisible states. It is not possible that the ghosts particles assemble from the surrounding environment, because there is absolutly no driving force (energetically speaking). Secondly, it is also not possible for the ghost's particles to come into and vanish from existence, since macroscopic matter does not behave like quantum particles and can not form out of nothing.

2) interaction issue: For something to physically interact with an object, that something needs to consist of matter. But then, that something will have all the properties of matter, which is: when two macroscopic, material objects collide, they don't pass through each other (tunneling is a quantum physical phenomenon, not that of macroscopic objects). Therefore, a ghost with material properties can not pass through solid objects.

Already, these two basic things rely on and at the same time completely ignore the rules of physics. There are tons of other silly statements about ghosts, which can easily be disproven. Therefore, ghosts, as we define them, can not exist.


If someone defined a ghost as a being, which exists outside of the real world and does not interact with the real world, then we could not dispove its existence. Just like we can not disprove the existence of god.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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27-10-2013, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2013 01:51 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(24-10-2013 09:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Luminon, you know I love you, but you ain't passed me anything.
Ah, so this wasn't clear enough to you? You want it with a state stamp, then?
More importantly, I suppose I can send it, then.

(24-10-2013 09:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That. That right there. You can't disprove 'it' (not having ever defined 'it'...). What would?

Scientific investigation is literally impossible without some standard of falsifiability.
I haven't defined 'it' because 'it' is a whole new can o' worms for all the local scientific purists.

(24-10-2013 09:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Casual sexism much?
More like casual autism, autistic brain is said to show signs of extreme maleness, that is, focus and problem-solving, not communication and broad social networking.

(24-10-2013 09:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I'm'a counter your pessimistically conspiratorial answer with the following: is it not also true that most scientists would dearly love to be the ones to discover something new? Particularly something dramatic? Especially particularly something evolutionary? I mean, as a rule such findings are kind of a big deal.
Something new perhaps, but what I describe is ancient. It's been around for millenia and Patanjali is just one of the newer guys who wrote about it. Ghosts and body energy are most likely to elicit the "not this shit again" reaction. So much for the couple centuries of modern science. It rests on assumptions that the thousand of so years of medieval superstitions are an accurate sample of the past.

(02-10-2013 05:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  What equipment do you need? Simply show cause and effect of something that cannot be explained by current understanding.

You know, sharpen some razor blades under a pyramid, charge a crystal with energy, transform some water into an effective medicine, and so on.

If the things you perceive exist and have an effect, simply show the effect. You need ideas and time - not equipment. Come up with testable hypotheses that show the existence of something.
I don't need to do anything, just point out people who have the right equipment and who already did all the experiments better than I could. My experience says that these are the people. My experience allowed to identify them among a whole sub-culture of woo that seems to be completely ambiguous to you and pick them out for comparison.

By the way, I don't do pyramids and crystals. Their use is to my best knowledge very limited. It's more of a New Age popculture. If you want to know more about crystal technologies, look up doctor Harry Oldfield, he's included in there too.
Sharpness of razors or healthiness of bodies is not obvious enough. Practically nothing about this subtle worlds is obvious the way we imagine natural phenomena to be. That's why I made sure to pick people who use some sort of electronic technology to make their work highly visible and/or measurable, as a proof of a concept.

(25-10-2013 03:07 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Oh he did other experiments, one where he said that the soul was made of etherTongue More woo for ya!
Well, today we call the ether dark matter. No disagreement there, but as I say, etheric body is not the soul, it's pretty much a part of our biology.

(25-10-2013 03:07 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Also the governments actually funded research into the paranormal. Remote viewing and also psychic research. The USSR started it than not to be outmatched the US also did it too. Psychic cold war! yeah project star gate!
And you heard of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, right?
Do you honestly think science is best used to find supernatural phenomena? It clearly doesn't affect anything. We don't need ghostbusters, clearly. You also have ghosthunters making their own equipment to "detect" ghosts even if they have no idea what their doing. Using equipment that an electrician has...How would they even know what a ghost was made of to properly detect one? Just because of some batteries that might drain or high emf spikes and coldspots? Don't get me started on EVPs. The photography aspect is laughable, I can make my own orbs and "ectoplasm", without photoshopTongue Hell..that has been done ever since photography was invented. The rest are hoaxes and misidentification, mostly due to pareidolia. There is good reason no one wants to risk their careers or get funding on this. Hey, you now have your God helmet to give you practical answers. That's what I'm interested in. To ask what the soul could be, and what a ghost could be, what near death experiences are, study of the mind is much more important than trying to find casper. We will inevitably have these answers doing real science when we unlock the brain.
Governments... What sorts of experiments a government can perform? The ones that never change anything. Government is the bureaucracy of all bureaucracies and it was good enough to work centuries ago. I'd bet the government only investigated these things, because Russians might. Turns out television and wiretapping are much more effective forms of manipulation and spying on people.
Government is not a good thing in science, because it does not have the experimental attitude, as B. F. Skinner would say. It can never admit a mistake, or heads would roll or careers would stunt. Government is the thing that invented the war on drugs, war on terrorism, war on poverty and so on. Science is better than that, but I still feel uneasy about government funding (or any other funding from above). Money rarely come with no strings attached.

You speak of God helmet, yes, a strong magnetic transcranial stimulation can give you mystical experiences. Yet I can and do have mystical experiences without a magnetic helmet frying my head. I'd say there is something that merely induces the experiences in brain and it is not always a magnetic helmet. What is it, that is the valuable mystery that would bring much benefit to science, if investigated. Screw helmets, we need the real thing, that normally causes the mystical experiences.

(25-10-2013 07:05 AM)Chas Wrote:  What are they doing that is useful? Please explain and give evidence.
Depends on what you want the evidence about. I would say that geniality, all kinds of geniality and creativity are sort of a "higher psychism". If we want to know more, we'd need to research the greatest artists, philosophers, activists and statesmen (not the political puppets of today). I mean not their dead brains like Einstein's, but their real time activity when manifesting their inner drive. Which is obviously difficult when being stuck in a fMRI machine. On top of that, I'd advise to investigate them with dr. Oldfield's or some other energy or aura viewing devices. It should be revealed, that these people are more high-powered than the ordinary person. At least this should be demonstrated on people who experience gamma brain waves, like in meditation. 50-100 Hz...
We must investigate the hypothesis, that the extraordinary person is more than a body, that he is a receiver of something greater that stimulates him both from the inside and the outside.

(25-10-2013 08:56 AM)cjlr Wrote:  This is actually a very good point to raise. During the 60s and 70s the Americans and Soviets were both willing to fund and/or investigate literally anything that might even come close to approaching having any demonstrable effect whatsoever. They didn't find anything. At all.

For this is a scenario which explicitly avoids the otherwise-common "lol conspiracy" explanation of null results. These were people being paid to find results. And they didn't.
I can think of several obstacles that might ruin experiments of this kind. But they're all internal to the field itself, the subject has pitfalls of both natural and social sciences at once. The current methodologies are inadequate to the subject and instruments used. Some already tried to invent a new methodology, for example this:
http://www.human-inquiry.com/expsrcon.htm

(25-10-2013 08:56 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again:
that is gibberish.
That is a vague and incoherent jumble of misapplied 'sciencey' words strung together without regard for their proper meanings or contexts. Prose like that, you could've been a scriptwriter for Star Trek: Voyager!

Going before, let us say, a group of physicists and presenting a coherent physical theory that accounts for unexplained (but demonstrable) phenomena will get you listened to.
Presenting them gibberish will get you ignored or ridiculed. The latter is not a fair response, though it is all too common - patience is not inexhaustible. But the former is the only fair response. For there is nothing to consider, or examine, or investigate. There's only gibberish.
All scientific language used to be gibberish. It started as a gibberish and even today it is, the difference is, we know what it refers to. Electron is the old name for amber. Atom is the old word for "indivisible", even though we split a lot of atoms nowadays. Vacuum refers to emptiness of breathable levels of air, even though we know nowadays, that the space vacuum is full of hard radiation and even has non-zero properties of its own. Any uninitiated stranger would say that scientists speak gibberish. The truth is, they speak in a jargon of the inner circle of the initiated.

If a person encounters a new phenomenon, he needs a name for it. Better yet, a name that has some descriptive power. But the description is necessarily pictorial and metaphorical, often historically outdated. In other words, gibberish. One person's professional jargon is another person's gibberish. How do we update the jargon? By the inner circle activities and debate. People from the public can hardly do that, anything that an outside person says, is marginalized as gibberish, because the inner circle does not know the thing that it refers to. If I say a "flying saucer", scientists will say that a ceramic pottery is too much of a heavy and fragile material to fly under its own power (that is, none).

(25-10-2013 08:56 AM)cjlr Wrote:  In which case the question you must first answer - before any other considerations might be made - is to determine whether your personal, subjective experiences are in fact reflective of anything at all external to yourself.
Is there a dispute that such experiences are at least internal to many other people, of today and history? I don't know if that counts as external. On some occasions, I found my experiences to be external and independently confirmed, but these occasions were never under my control, I don't know how to replicate them.
Perhaps some of the technologies I listed would make such experiments easy.


However, I must acknowledge that the general attitude of skepticism of humanity has its purpose. It is one of the greatest protections we have against
- undesirable and dangerous experiments that do take their toll in driving people into insanity, delusion or worse, increased self-control and charisma for selfish ends,
- dangerous forces that exist independently in subtle realm. They may be passive dangers like pitfalls or forces of some kind, or they possibly might be sentient ones, because it is just another area of life and living and it may contain the social side and criminal or predatory elements that exist in most living areas.
So thanks to the exclusive nature of science it is guaranteed that we will never get into too much contact with these dangers, unless it is on our own terms, with instruments to handle them. Either that, or we will stay isolated. I might even think as much that this kind of research is perhaps premature today, when the problem of war and global greed has not yet been resolved. Or maybe it would help to remedy these problems, I don't know. In any case, we must not see this research as just another subject of natural sciences. If this is what we think it is, there is the social element also, both that the researcher's body is an instrument in himself, and that the subjects of research (like ghosts or spirits of some kind) may be less or more sentient and thus not cooperative like natural laws. For example, a natural phenomenon will not tell you outright lies or half-truths. Spirits, if the writings of "channeling" should be judged, can and frequently do.

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27-10-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Ghosts, Spirits, Apparitions, and the like.
(26-10-2013 04:36 AM)Youkay Wrote:  This whole talk about ghosts is absolutely ridiculous. It is easy to show that ghosts, as we fear them, can not exist.

What are common features of a ghost, that we can agree upon?
- sometimes it is invisible, sometimes it is visible
- it can pass through objects, interact with objects and can even teleport

Based on these two very simple features, it is already impossible for a ghost to exist:

1) visibility issue: For something to be visible to the human eye, the ghost has to reflect, difract or disperse visible light. For this, it has to consist of matter. Without going into further detail, we can already falsify the claim of a ghost that can switch between visible and unvisible states. It is not possible that the ghosts particles assemble from the surrounding environment, because there is absolutly no driving force (energetically speaking). Secondly, it is also not possible for the ghost's particles to come into and vanish from existence, since macroscopic matter does not behave like quantum particles and can not form out of nothing.
These features are not as simple as you say. This is all based on presumptions that the solid, visible matter is the only kind of matter there is. It presumes that dark matter is not present or not applicable, that there are no supersymmetric particles forming a parallel universe underlying ours, that there are no higher universes based on something as obscure as axion physics...

(26-10-2013 04:36 AM)Youkay Wrote:  2) interaction issue: For something to physically interact with an object, that something needs to consist of matter. But then, that something will have all the properties of matter, which is: when two macroscopic, material objects collide, they don't pass through each other (tunneling is a quantum physical phenomenon, not that of macroscopic objects). Therefore, a ghost with material properties can not pass through solid objects.
There is no such thing as a solid object. There are only fields of an atom that repel each other through electromagnetic force, which is also responsible for radiation, among other things, in visible spectrum. So if under some circumstances was this electromagnetic interaction partially impossible,
- the matter would pass through other objects made of matter of different configuration (ours)
- it would radiate either imperceptibly low, or in different than visible spectrum, or both.

(26-10-2013 04:36 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Already, these two basic things rely on and at the same time completely ignore the rules of physics. There are tons of other silly statements about ghosts, which can easily be disproven. Therefore, ghosts, as we define them, can not exist.

If someone defined a ghost as a being, which exists outside of the real world and does not interact with the real world, then we could not dispove its existence. Just like we can not disprove the existence of god.
Of course. I'm glad we agree on that. Now let's face the true challenge, what are the ways that ghosts could possibly exist? What would be a hypothetical configuration of matter that might exist and might be responsible for ghost-like phenomena? That is the real way to define a ghost.

For example, I encountered claims that the supersymmetric particles do interact electro-magnetically - sort of, that their magnetic element on graph is absent, and the electric element is emphasized. Thus they react especially to electro-static charge and practically nothing else. This is why there are many devices in alternative medicine, which focus on electro-static detection or excitation of such particles and their measurement for the purpose of medical diagnosis, because all psycho-somatic diseases first manifest on the person's "ghost", before they weaken a given area in the biologic body, where a disease then moves in.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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