Ghosts of the ostfront
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23-07-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
It's stupid to have an opinion of a podcaster if you've never even listened to one of his podcasts. You can't argue against that without sounding moronic. So have at it. Make yourself look stupid.
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23-07-2017, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017 01:01 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:40 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Guys, please dont make me get the big ol´water hose. Big Grin

Szuchow: I appreciate your effor tot listen to the promo, but (like many things) Carlin can only be judged by getting a bit deeper:

I'm not saying that he is entirely wrong - it depends on what he meant with his not following orders spiel; if it was about soldiers then he is wrong. If this is wider issue then case get more complicated but one has to keep in mind that disobedience in high circles didn't equaled execution in Reich and terror was primarily directed at foreigners.

Maybe entire episode goes deeper into issue but what I heard didn't make me eager to check it. 6 dollars would buy me Murakami or Eco book in this barbarous country (or even both when used Smile) so choice isn't hard.

(23-07-2017 12:47 PM)ImFred Wrote:  It's stupid to have an opinion of a podcaster if you've never even listened to one of his podcasts. You can't argue against that without sounding moronic. So have at it. Make yourself look stupid.

It's nice to see how clowns dig themselves deeper with each post. I listened to his promo and criticized part of his work that I now know. To me it was bad - it does not mean that all his works are bad. But by all means, you're free to think I have opinion on podcaster in general after not listening to his podcasts.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-07-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:40 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Abaris: No, its definitely not Gido Knopp like. He is 0% moralizing (unlike Guido) Laugh out load You may wanna try on (YT) his podcast on the "Wiedertäufer" movement in Münster, "Prophets of doom". Something that definitely must have been hard for him to learn, and something we germans (in a broader sense Big Grin ) have a better knowledge of, because each people tend to have a better education on their own history (again: generally speaking).

I listened to one of his podcasts in the meantime. It's anecdotal. I'm afraid I have to take Szuchow's side here.

I will listen to his Wiedertäufer podcast however, since that's a period I'm not very familar wiith.

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23-07-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:48 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 12:40 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Abaris: No, its definitely not Gido Knopp like. He is 0% moralizing (unlike Guido) Laugh out load You may wanna try on (YT) his podcast on the "Wiedertäufer" movement in Münster, "Prophets of doom". Something that definitely must have been hard for him to learn, and something we germans (in a broader sense Big Grin ) have a better knowledge of, because each people tend to have a better education on their own history (again: generally speaking).

I listened to one of his podcasts in the meantime. It's anecdotal. I'm afraid I have to take Szuchow's side here.

I will listen to his Wiedertäufer podcast however, since that's a period I'm not very familar wiith.

lol

yeah right

Did you read War and Peace while you were at it?
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23-07-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:47 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 12:40 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Guys, please dont make me get the big ol´water hose. Big Grin

Szuchow: I appreciate your effor tot listen to the promo, but (like many things) Carlin can only be judged by getting a bit deeper:

I'm not saying that he is entirely wrong - it depends on what he meant with his not following orders spiel; if it was about soldiers then he is wrong. If this is wider issue then case get more complicated but one has to keep in mind that disobedience in high circles didn't equaled execution in Reich and terror was primarily directed at foreigners.

Maybe entire episode goes deeper into issue but what I heard didn't make me eager to check it.

(23-07-2017 12:47 PM)ImFred Wrote:  It's stupid to have an opinion of a podcaster if you've never even listened to one of his podcasts. You can't argue against that without sounding moronic. So have at it. Make yourself look stupid.

It's nice to see how clowns dig themselves deeper with each post. I listened to his promo and criticized part of his work that I now know. To me it was bad - it does not mean that all his works are bad. But by all means, you're free to think I have opinion on podcaster in general after not listening to his podcasts.

lol

Thanks for going in depth about his promo.
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23-07-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:58 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 12:47 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I'm not saying that he is entirely wrong - it depends on what he meant with his not following orders spiel; if it was about soldiers then he is wrong. If this is wider issue then case get more complicated but one has to keep in mind that disobedience in high circles didn't equaled execution in Reich and terror was primarily directed at foreigners.

Maybe entire episode goes deeper into issue but what I heard didn't make me eager to check it.


It's nice to see how clowns dig themselves deeper with each post. I listened to his promo and criticized part of his work that I now know. To me it was bad - it does not mean that all his works are bad. But by all means, you're free to think I have opinion on podcaster in general after not listening to his podcasts.

lol

Thanks for going in depth about his promo.

Thanks for making me laugh. I knew I could count on you.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-07-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:48 PM)abaris Wrote:  I listened to one of his podcasts in the meantime

If you trust the account not to be embellished, anecdotal accounts of events can provide deeper insights and perspectives than a list of successive facts.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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23-07-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 01:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  If you trust the account not to be embellished, anecdotal accounts of events can provide deeper insights and perspectives than a list of successive facts.

What bothers me and what made me quit was his take on the death machinery. He's making excuses for the ones carrying out the crimes, even though he doesn't aim to do that. He's taking anecdotal quotes from Germans - and Russian - that the regime could make you dissapear. Well, agreed, but when it comes to the ones carrying out the final solution, be it in the camps, be it as members of the Einsatzgruppen, they could refuse the orders. None of them faced any punishment for that. They were just sent to the frontlines to serve in the army.

This is a fact that even the first war cime trials took into consideration. It's one of the reasons why the I only obeyed orders defense didn't stick. The allied courts already knew that noone was punished or even faced consequences for not willing to be part of the death machinery.

If he's wrong on that, he probably will be wrong on other issues as well.

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23-07-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 01:09 PM)abaris Wrote:  What bothers me and what made me quit was his take on the death machinery. He's making excuses for the ones carrying out the crimes, even though he doesn't aim to do that. He's taking anecdotal quotes from Germans - and Russian - that the regime could make you dissapear. Well, agreed, but when it comes to the ones carrying out the final solution, be it in the camps, be it as members of the Einsatzgruppen, they could refuse the orders. None of them faced any punishment for that. They were just sent to the frontlines to serve in the army.

No one was prosecuted but that does not mean no one was punished - one can assume that being sent to the front after refusing order wasn't form of reward. There's also peer pressure and/or demotion.

There's also a precedent showing that one could resign from participation in mass murder and not being sent to front - Alfred Filbert CO of Einsatzkommando 9 requested transfer to the Ostfront after he couldn't take more bloodshed but was sent on vacation. [Richard Rhodes, Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust, p.277 of Polish 2015 edition]

Quote:This is a fact that even the first war cime trials took into consideration. It's one of the reasons why the I only obeyed orders defense didn't stick. The allied courts already knew that noone was punished or even faced consequences for not willing to be part of the death machinery.

As I said above there were consequences and punishments. No death sentences though.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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23-07-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 01:52 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  There's also a precedent showing that one could resign from participation in mass murder and not being sent to front - Alfred Filbert CO of Einsatzkommando 9 requested transfer to the Ostfront after he couldn't take more bloodshed but was sent on vacation. [Richard Rhodes, Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust, p.277 of Polish 2015 edition]

Hans Münch was also one of these cases. Doctor at Auschwitz, refused to participate in the selection process and actually took the side of the prisoners at times. He stood accused in Poland after the war and was the only one being aquitted because survivors vouched for him.

Then there's Conrad Morgen. SS judge being sent to Auschwitz to investigate corruption. In the 60ies he was a crucial witness for the prosecution in the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt. He also did more than he had to. Though he's up for debate, since Eugen Kogon mentions him in a different light when he came to Buchenwald. Kogon connects him to prisoners being killed.

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