Ghosts of the ostfront
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24-07-2017, 08:15 AM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 12:29 PM)ImFred Wrote:  The entire promo? Wow. Get working on your dissertation the book work is done.

I'm tempted to post saying "I haven't heard the podcast but I heard Carlin's pretty good" just so I can get blistered by ImFred. I am LOLing at his zingers.Thumbsup
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24-07-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(24-07-2017 08:15 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 12:29 PM)ImFred Wrote:  The entire promo? Wow. Get working on your dissertation the book work is done.

I'm tempted to post saying "I haven't heard the podcast but I heard Carlin's pretty good" just so I can get blistered by ImFred. I am LOLing at his zingers.Thumbsup

But the thing that Fred can't wrap his mind about is that I heard promo and it was depending on context wrong or exaggerated; if something starts bad it is not unreasonable to think that rest isn't better.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-07-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(24-07-2017 08:37 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But the thing that Fred can't wrap his mind about is that I heard promo and it was depending on context wrong or exaggerated; if something starts bad it is not unreasonable to think that rest isn't better.

Even more so if the premise is already wrong. If your foundation is faulty, the whole building can't support itself. The part we discussed above is at the root of the problem.

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24-07-2017, 09:56 AM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(23-07-2017 01:09 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(23-07-2017 01:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  If you trust the account not to be embellished, anecdotal accounts of events can provide deeper insights and perspectives than a list of successive facts.

What bothers me and what made me quit was his take on the death machinery. He's making excuses for the ones carrying out the crimes, even though he doesn't aim to do that. He's taking anecdotal quotes from Germans - and Russian - that the regime could make you dissapear. Well, agreed, but when it comes to the ones carrying out the final solution, be it in the camps, be it as members of the Einsatzgruppen, they could refuse the orders. None of them faced any punishment for that. They were just sent to the frontlines to serve in the army.

This is a fact that even the first war cime trials took into consideration. It's one of the reasons why the I only obeyed orders defense didn't stick. The allied courts already knew that noone was punished or even faced consequences for not willing to be part of the death machinery.

If he's wrong on that, he probably will be wrong on other issues as well.

But that is the benefit of anecdotal accounts right there! You've identified an "irrational" fear people had back then - irrational if you know the facts, but not so if you are living in the times and are pretty much totally uninformed.

It is very interesting to hear these accounts, where their observations, fears, expectations or prejudices are present. Enough of these and you will answer the questions that is still constantly asked: "How could people let that happen?"

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-07-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
(24-07-2017 09:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  It is very interesting to hear these accounts, where their observations, fears, expectations or prejudices are present. Enough of these and you will answer the questions that is still constantly asked: "How could people let that happen?"

That's called oral history and is a valid an important part of history. It would be a mistake though to take them at face value. People's accounts are unreliable and deeply subjective. So they always have to be checked against known facts and documents. That's the problem I have with this approach. He doesn't do his checks and presents these accounts as if they were the answer to why this happened although they're in stark contradiction to what we already know and what is already established.

The better question would be why did they say what they said. And the answer is often, because they didn't want to be seen in a bad light. A very prominent example of that would be Albert Speer's "Erinnerungen". Hist autobiography he published together with historian Joachim Fest after he was released from Spandau. Everything in there is aimed at being seen as the good and repentant nazi leader. Which he wasn't. Speer was an opportunist of the first order and deeply involved in war crimes. And yet you can use that book to check it against facts. Not everything he wrote was a lie. But one has to be careful what's genuine and what's fake in order to create a legend.

Another example on a much lower level would be the accounts of Hitler's secretary Traudl Junge. In her case she really seemed to try and make sense of her work for Hitler and why she liked him as her boss. But you can't take the memories of an elderly woman at face value either. She certainly made mistakes and she certainly presented herself as having been more naive than she actually was. Again, using that account, one has to do checks.

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12-08-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
Damn

Carlin's new podcast is six hours long. Why the hell doesn't he chop these damn things up?
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12-08-2017, 10:17 PM
RE: Ghosts of the ostfront
Dont know Laugh out load
Last time he explained that he didnt want it to be 6hrs anyway and it just *evolved* into 6hrs.
When i saw the title first, i was irritated, then underwhelmed. When i read "celtic" i thought it as something about the british islands, then, in the description it mentioned Ceasars conquest of gaul. I have read Ceasar in the orignal in school. Lets see what Carlin has made out of it.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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