Girls banned from going to university.
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26-08-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 10:50 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 07:44 AM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  That's not even a thing ...

Exactly my point.

Yes

(26-08-2016 09:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  From the article linked:

"... a design and technology syllabus which ‘limits girls to activities on knitting and sewing’."

Coincidentally... that was also the case for the CofE school I attended. Boys did woodwork and stuff; girls did 'domestic sciences'.

Good to see that times have changed in Blighty.

Dodgy

see my comment right after that

Indeed fuck the Satmars! they are as bad for Jews as Islamic fundamentalists are for Islam for those of us able to freaking tell the difference between Fundies and believers who are not batshit insane

Islamophobia is as real as trans phobia or homophobia and it's just as destructive and foolish

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26-08-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 12:24 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  Islamophobia is as real as trans phobia or homophobia and it's just as destructive and foolish

No it isn't , islamophobia is a bullshit term coined by the Islamic fundamentalist in order to deem any criticism of Islam as bigotry and it is used in precisely that manner by the "progressives" these days because criticizing the group that is so high on the victim scale is a big no no and shaming tactics are the first go-to solution to stifle what is considered as wrongthink.


Btw, Phobias are medical conditions , an anxiety disorders, involuntary and outside of the control of the ones affected by them, understanding this you must see how this term is completely inapplicable if you are trying to describe some bigoted behavior/opinion.

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26-08-2016, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2016 02:16 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 10:44 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 09:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  From the article linked:

"...And last year the Rabia Girls’ and Boys’ School in Luton was criticised by inspectors for, among other things, teaching a design and technology syllabus which ‘limits girls to activities on knitting and sewing’."

The Rabia School of Luton is not even Jewish. It's an independent Islamic faith school. My confidence in the integrity of this article is compromised when I learn that the author can't tell the difference between Muslims and Jews.
See your point, Alias. It could have been a fairly typical editing error, still not excusable but...

In an editorial meeting talk can drift around the subject. Islamic schools may have been mentioned, notes made and the school mistakenly added in.

Still incompetence but may not affect the veracity of the other stuff. But it is one reason I never buy papers; they either make stuff up, inflate with irrelevant anecdotes and speculation, print their own biased opinions or simply get it wrong!

The article concerns my community, so naturally I'm going to climb up on my high horse and say why it's all wrong! Unfortunately, I found the piece so poorly written that it’s hard not to criticize it. In spite of the title, the main idea of the article is about sexism within Judaism. To drive this agenda, the article focus on minor problems in the Jewish community, mischaracterizes bigger problems, dismisses critical problems and blatantly misattributes problems from other cultures. This is not a matter of poor editing… this is a matter of irresponsible, agenda driven reporting.

Sorry, Zeff. Your username feels kind of Jewy too, so you may even be a member of tribe. The problems that you've raised in this article are important, but it misdirects readers in the goal of creating a sexist issue. Sexism is a serious matter that needs to be addressed, but let’s address actual sexism and not things being misconstrued as sexism or are only viewed as sexist by people outside of the orthodox Jewish community.

Let me go on record saying that sexism exists in Judaism. I’ve felt it against me at times and it naturally bothers me. I've even noted that I feel is more strongly when I'm with more religious people. ...I’ve also noticed sexism against men, but I never see anyone crusading against that. I perceive that there's more sexism against men than against women.

This is this about the women. The article opens by discussing a private school that was banned from accepting new students because it expected to women to cover their knees and elbows. What amount of skin is any woman, regardless of religion, expected to cover in any other school or office setting? Really, the cut-off is just a few inches up the arms and legs. Below are some examples of attire that meets Orthodox standards, and some that do not. I tried to select comparable items that women might wear to work, school, or an evening out with family.

Non-Orthodox Collection:
[Image: a-summer-dress-5.jpg]

[Image: 1780-free-shipping-spring-autumn-women-s...ss-hot.jpg]

[Image: Deep-Red-Half-Sleeve-Frock-Lace-Dress-for-Spring.jpg]

[Image: work%2Bto%2Bhappy%2Bhour%2Boutfit%2Bideas.png]

I love this last one because it's from a secular site and they’re telling women to cover up at work.


Orthodox Collection:

[Image: fe50dcdba918325ae52dfe839b6613ad.jpg]
(note that she's probably wearing tights due to the season rather than because she's afraid to show her legs.)

[Image: fc726896f117cfc762bdb30382a1039c]

[Image: 378deda189151b533490484f159d29aa.jpg]

[Image: 51ea21caf6e1657c14752bc1aade5a24.jpg]


The article is so worried over a few inches above the knees and elbows that they don’t bother to mention that the primary reason that the Haradi school in question was banned for accepting new students because they were not giving more than 1 hour per day of secular studies to all of their students. Gender was not a variable.

That’s a problem! I think not educating students in math, English, reading and history is a much bigger deal with than elbows and knees!
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26-08-2016, 02:14 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
As I said, I don't read papers because I have not yet found one that I feel I could trust.

But I do know how easy it is to conflate the wrong things in a rushed meeting.!

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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26-08-2016, 02:41 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 02:14 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  As I said, I don't read papers because I have not yet found one that I feel I could trust.

But I do know how easy it is to conflate the wrong things in a rushed meeting.!

Yeah, I know... but I'm on my high horse now, and it's going to be a few more posts before I dismount.

The author of this article again points to information that is treated as an afterthought in the source article and paints the reasoning behind criticism toward a particular private Jewish school being due to children holding traditional gender roles. It’s not. It’s because the school refused to teach evolution to students and fails to meet “minimum standards” for an independent school.

Although we can clearly see from the article that the school is not correcting children’s perceptions, we have no way of knowing if they’re generating these perceptions or if the kids are simply observing that mom tends to do the laundry and cook, and dad tends to go to work. Frankly, these are Jewish kids, so probably someone comes in to do the laundry. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself!)

I think failing to provide minimal science education is a much bigger problem than worrying about who cleans the toilets at home vs. who cleans the toilets at an office. If you don’t fucking educate your kids, everyone’s going to end up cleaning toilets somewhere! Angry
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26-08-2016, 04:56 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2016 05:03 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
I’m going to stop addressing Glouster individually and just rant and rave in general. Tongue This is proving to be a subject that I really need to vent about.

This article accuses Chassidic and Haradi schools of being sexist and it only mentions women being forbidden to get a university degree. No change to the policies for men is mentioned so it implies that men are welcome to (continue to) seek university educations.

In the Jewish world, men study Torah and women run the household. (Note that the division of labor and the ability to work outside the home is neither mandated nor forbidden for either gender.) In the past, men and women had clearly defined roles. The men worked and learned Torah, and the women worked and ran the household. The most respected men in the Jewish community were the Torah scholars. Their advice was sought after and their words weighed in more heavily than that of the common man's. There’d only be a handful of Torah scholars but there would be lots of farmers and tailors and butchers, etc.

Today, what we see is an unfortunate sense of entitlement held by Jewish men who come from a culture where Torah education is more highly regarded than money. Everyone wants to be a Torah scholar and no one wants to be an electronics salesman. These communities have a disproportionate number of men who, in lieu of getting jobs, spend all day and all night studying Torah in the persuit of becoming the next great Hillel or Gamaliel. This leaves their wives with the responsibility of both child-rearing and serving as the bread winner. In spite of what the author of this article would have you to believe, ultra-orthodox women are most certainly seeking higher educations because income earning is increasingly becoming a woman’s role.

This video sums it up nicely. (If you decide to watch the video from the beginning, please be forewarned that doing so may result in a strong distaste for converting to orthodox Judaism.)

The women that the article is referring may actually be getting blackballed to discourage them from seeking secular educations... the author's credibility with me is pretty poor and the letter is too fuzzy to read. It's mainly women who are seeking university educations, and if they are being forbidden, then it’s not because they’re women… It’s because Chassids hate inviting secularism into their world.

Oh and this: https://aabgu.org/ultra-orthodox-women-o...1-in-tech/
and this: http://www.timesofisrael.com/as-ultra-or...he-f-word/
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26-08-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 03:58 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  This is why I get pissed at people who, while rightfully pointing at the transgressions of the middle east, far too many, including some atheists, think sexism and human cruelty are strictly actions only Muslisms can do. Our species behaviors while humans falsely attribute them to a holy book, the book itself is the excuse, but not the source. Our species was around long before any written religion or national boarders. Sexism and violence have always existed worldwide. The west only learned to become more civil in spite of religion, not because of it.

There are pockets of sexism and justifications for tribalism that have been made by every religion, including those of Asia and the Orient. It isn't that you can rid the entire world of 7 billion of any religion, but some seem to forget the difference between criticism and blasphemy and demagoguery. If you criticize Islam, that is certainly needed, but in that process do not act like Islam owns a patent on sexism and cruelty.

There are right wing Jews as well, I have read stories of their sexist men holding up airlines refusing to sit next to women. I have read stories of defacing women on billboards and even ice cream shops because "licking" ice cream in public is too sexual.

Our species behaviors are not in holy books or religious labels. Our species behaviors, good or bad, are evolutionary. There is not one nation friend or foe alike, that does not have hospitals or prisons.

I tried to read your post but it wasn't in ALL CAPS and neglected to say how fucking stupid people were that didn't agree with you. So, I just sort of fell asleep during rea...... zzzzzzzzz

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-08-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Girls banned from going to university.
(26-08-2016 09:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  From the article linked:

"...And last year the Rabia Girls’ and Boys’ School in Luton was criticised by inspectors for, among other things, teaching a design and technology syllabus which ‘limits girls to activities on knitting and sewing’."

The Rabia School of Luton is not even Jewish. It's an independent Islamic faith school. My confidence in the integrity of this article is compromised when I learn that the author can't tell the difference between Muslims and Jews.

That'd be a clue. I was reading an article online where in a guy carried on and on about the Muslims on his street who had bowls of food out for their god to eat! Not sure what group they belonged to, but quite certain they weren't Muslims
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