Global Surveillance Programs
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02-02-2016, 05:11 PM
Global Surveillance Programs
It's been a few years since Edward Snowden revealed that the governments of many important countries have been spying on their people for decades without any regards for local laws or constitutions. Not only that, they even went as far as sharing their findings with each other as part of a global alliance called Five Eyes. I find it hard to believe that politicians are behind it, given that it has been going on for such a long time, regardless of which party was in charge at the time.

What are your thoughts on the matter? What group of people do you think is behind this global conspiracy (I think it's fair to call it that)? Consider

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02-02-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 05:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's been a few years since Edward Snowden revealed that the governments of many important countries have been spying on their people for decades without any regards for local laws or constitutions. Not only that, they even went as far as sharing their findings with each other as part of a global alliance called Five Eyes. I find it hard to believe that politicians are behind it, given that it has been going on for such a long time, regardless of which party was in charge at the time.

What are your thoughts on the matter? What group of people do you think is behind this global conspiracy (I think it's fair to call it that)? Consider

Conspiracy? I think that's a tad off the mark. Here is a good overview of what it is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Conspiracy? I think that's a tad off the mark. Here is a good overview of what it is.
You don't think the term fits? Oxford Dictionaries defines a conspiracy as "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful." It's right on the money as far as I'm concerned. The global surveillance program, which is still ongoing, was both very secret and very unlawful.

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02-02-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 05:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's been a few years since Edward Snowden revealed that the governments of many important countries have been spying on their people for decades without any regards for local laws or constitutions. Not only that, they even went as far as sharing their findings with each other as part of a global alliance called Five Eyes. I find it hard to believe that politicians are behind it, given that it has been going on for such a long time, regardless of which party was in charge at the time.

What are your thoughts on the matter? What group of people do you think is behind this global conspiracy (I think it's fair to call it that)? Consider

Conspiracy? I think that's a tad off the mark. Here is a good overview of what it is.

When people talked about Echelon in the 90s that's exactly what most folks called it - a conspiracy theory. The 1988 whistleblower was treated like a loony and mocked as a paranoid tinfoil-hatter. The line then was "It's not happening because it's a conspiracy theory." The line now seems to be "It's not a conspiracy because it happened." Call it what you will I guess. It happened, mostly secretly, and all the while governments denied it and media dismissed it.
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02-02-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 05:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's been a few years since Edward Snowden revealed that the governments of many important countries have been spying on their people for decades without any regards for local laws or constitutions. Not only that, they even went as far as sharing their findings with each other as part of a global alliance called Five Eyes. I find it hard to believe that politicians are behind it, given that it has been going on for such a long time, regardless of which party was in charge at the time.

What are your thoughts on the matter? What group of people do you think is behind this global conspiracy (I think it's fair to call it that)? Consider

Conspiracy? I think that's a tad off the mark. Here is a good overview of what it is.

Why the fuck is Canada involved? Monitoring the North Pole and Bering Strait? And New Zealand and Australia wtf? Monitoring the South Pole?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-02-2016, 07:30 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 06:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Conspiracy? I think that's a tad off the mark. Here is a good overview of what it is.

Why the fuck is Canada involved? Monitoring the North Pole and Bering Strait? And New Zealand and Australia wtf? Monitoring the South Pole?

We're monitoring the U.S. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2016, 07:41 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 07:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-02-2016 06:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why the fuck is Canada involved? Monitoring the North Pole and Bering Strait? And New Zealand and Australia wtf? Monitoring the South Pole?

We're monitoring the U.S. Drinking Beverage

We were monitoring the leaders of the EU phone calls until we got caught.
I assume we still are.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-02-2016, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2016 07:55 PM by I Am.)
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 05:11 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's been a few years since Edward Snowden revealed that the governments of many important countries have been spying on their people for decades without any regards for local laws or constitutions. Not only that, they even went as far as sharing their findings with each other as part of a global alliance called Five Eyes. I find it hard to believe that politicians are behind it, given that it has been going on for such a long time, regardless of which party was in charge at the time.

What are your thoughts on the matter? What group of people do you think is behind this global conspiracy (I think it's fair to call it that)? Consider

Behind it, like more behind than the agencies doing the spying? Or the executives who were in power at the time? Wikipedia says action on Echelon began in 1964, so talk and plans were probably ongoing a while before that. We could list the presidents and prime ministers and their relevant cabinet members, and some intelligence directors as well. It's probably a fun crowd of characters, can't wait to see the movie.

But more deeply sourced intention than that, I don't know. It seems like expanding state power is reason enough for those in office to do it. And fear of popular anger is reason enough to hide it, and keeping a secret is enough reason to compartmentalise orders, and the carrot-and-stick of keeping a job and avoiding prison is usually enough reason to follow orders. The conspiracy seems like a magic trick - it fools us at first, but eventually someone sees the trick and tells, and once you know for sure how they guess the card it seems pretty ordinary.

Edit: The multinational thing: For a while it seems the agencies tried to maintain pretense of not spying domestically. But there was less prohibition on spying internationally and sharing intelligence. So USA spies on UK, UK spies on AUS, AUS spies on &etc who spies on USA, and then everyone shares. I am sure my understanding is simplistic but you see the idea.
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02-02-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
(02-02-2016 07:49 PM)I Am Wrote:  Edit: The multinational thing: For a while it seems the agencies tried to maintain pretense of not spying domestically. But there was less prohibition on spying internationally and sharing intelligence. So USA spies on UK, UK spies on AUS, AUS spies on &etc who spies on USA, and then everyone shares. I am sure my understanding is simplistic but you see the idea.

Yeah you got it right. It's a way to overcome popular objections to invasion of privacy. "Hey we didn't collect that data on you, the Maori did." does not pass muster on an institutional review board.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-02-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Global Surveillance Programs
A nation cannot remain competitive without an extensive intelligence gathering network, and an intelligence gathering network loses effectiveness when too many people understand how it works.

And people may laugh at some of these, but to use the Canada comment as an example, it is anticipated that as the ice caps melt, routes to the north will become enticing for smugglers of various types to use. Not remaining on top of it could put the security of the country at risk. And then there's stuff like this, a random example of some of the shit that was done in the past that had the potential to sway the balance in ways that most people wouldn't predict:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Station_Kurt

Avoiding the controversial intel game is like trying to wear a blindfold while play chess with someone and being required to tell them what move you're going to make three turns in advance, and only being allowed to move to defend yourself once you're already in checkmate.

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