Go ahead, shred my homily for today
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18-04-2013, 12:33 AM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
(17-04-2013 10:33 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 08:16 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  To explain these things to a naturalist we'd lack common ground once we left "natural law" and talked about loving our neighbor and honoring God. Right? YOU have no grounds to say initiating violence is wrong. I NEVER said I don't agree with the moral principle of tolerance and peace among neighbors. The burden of proof is on the Evolutionist. Sorry.

And I'm not saying Evolutionists condone rape! I am saying that condemning rape is inconsistent with a naturalist's worldview. As for initiating violence, why don't Evolutionists march against lions killing gazelles? The lions initiate violence, cause separation for gazelle young from their parents, cause gazelles pain and suffering, etc. It's because it's NATURAL for evolved predators to predate. It's natural for animals to forcibly mount other animals and impregnate them.

Rape, murder and even human cannibalism are justifiable for survival of individuals and in some cases, groups, right? If the Jews went for it and murdered every Nazi they could kill on the sly, perhaps they wouldn't have gone through the Holocaust, right? And tribes ate tribes before they were eaten, right?

I'm sorry, and I'm trying to say this kindly, but it seems like the only justification naturalists have for what most folks call "decent, Christian behavior" Wink (here comes the Inquisition stories) is "we have clearly evolved to be a social species". Well, the same Inquistion you hurl in my face shows we haven't, and you have no empirical proof. People don't rape and murder because they fear retribution... from man and God.

Epic fail, folks.


Your attempts at wordsmithing don't strengthen your argument. Nor does your use of non sequitur. To clarify, yet again... the principle I mentioned is the non aggression principle. It applies to humans, not to animals. Animals are not moral agents and thus, the principle of non aggression does not apply to them. Lions do eat gazelles and sex in the wild is often violent and imposed... on that we agree. But again, for clarity... this is not a discussion about lions and gazelles or any other animal that doesn't have the level of cognition that humans possess. This discussion is exclusive to the human animal.

Rape & murder are never justifiable. Cannibalism, except in "lifeboat" scenarios, is unjustified. However, those lifeboat scenarios are so rare and so desperate that applying moral rules to them is best left to those who experience them. Interestingly enough, cannibalism throughout history has been the result of superstition and not nutritional needs. Rural tribes eat others among them (usually children) as sacrifices or as a means to transfer perceived powers from the body of the dead to the body of the living. Early Christians regularly practiced infanticide and the consumption of their murdered offspring by the parents. Often, the other living children were forced to share in the meal and the reasons for that cannibalism were as unfounded as those of earlier superstitious peoples. In the end, cannibalism has never been widely practiced by "naturalists". Rather, it has always been a religious rite.

As for the evolution of humans as a social animal, we are and always have been social animals. Children are not inclined toward violence, distrust and superstition. Those are learned behaviors and given that for thousands of years humans have been superstitious, it stands to reason that humans have been rearing superstitious children. Fortunately, the trend has been toward empathy and that has allowed a certain number of children to be raised a little less violently than their parents were. Over the centuries that phenomena has facilitated the many advances humanity has made and not consequently, it is the sole reason that superstition is on the decline.

You mentioned Jews and Nazis... why do you suppose Hitler and the majority of Germans we capable of such hatred for Jews? In Hitler's case, he was raised by the bastard son of a Jew who, as an Austrian, shared in the common hatred for Jews. Hitler's father beat him unmercifully and daily, ostensibly for the purpose of punishing the filthy Jewish blood that ran through the child's veins. The result of such a brutal childhood was that Adolf was determined that Jews be eradicated so that he could vindicate his father and thus, finally gain his love. As for the German populace, they too suffered from brutal childhoods, with the most common parenting book of the time advising that infants should be beaten until their will was broken. And that further beatings would serve to reinforce their subjugation. When not being beaten for imagined sinfulness, German (and Austrian) infants were kept in swaddling bands, placed in sacks and hung from nails while their parents worked or went about other activities. When they were older, they were also bathed in ice cold water to "strengthen" their resolve and their character. All of these practices were common in the area at the time and all were based upon the strictures of Catholicism.

Is it any wonder these people were capable of the atrocities they supported and carried out? Were they born with this hatred? Of course not. They were simply projecting their childhood fears and abuse onto an object of hatred, which is a common psychological defense mechanism unique to all humans.

All of the above is documented throughout various accounts, diaries, and literature of the times.

Likewise, the effects of more peaceful parenting methods are demonstrable in everyday life. As we move away from violence, we move away from religion. Instead opting for more rational and peaceful means of resolving problems and rearing our young. Violence is so uncommon now that when there is a serial or spree killer, the news shakes the world. A thousand years ago, seeing people killed in public was often seen as entertainment. People were murdered for such crimes as blasphemy or adultery and children were frequently killed by their parents for misdemeanor offenses. Little girls were killed for the crime of being raped. All in the name of honoring your god's will.

I don't need to justify my moral framework to you, because it doesn't rely on honoring mystical beings or avenging made up crimes.It is based upon observable, empirical evidence of the negative affects violence has on human beings. It can be proven without the use of faith and it is applicable to all people at all times and in all places. Such universality is the hallmark of a principle. Religious or even secular relative morals are not morals at all. They are nothing more than bigoted opinions.

bbeljefe, I find your explanations and arguments erudite and presented in a non-confrontational tone. PJ, on the other hand appears, to me, more and more desperate in his arguments which you have picked apart convincingly.

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."- Mark Twain in Eruption
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18-04-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
Quote:My son is twenty six years old. He is a peaceful, honest and compassionate man who has never been in a fist fight, used drugs, smoked or been in a courtroom. Throughout his life, my wife and I have consistently been complimented by friends, family and strangers on his manners, his willingness to help and his intelligence. He was raised with no yelling, no violence, no arbitrary rules and no religion. He was always given the opportunity to voice his opinions, choose his own style of dress, music etc. Funny thing is, the parents of his contemporaries often accused us of molly coddling. Yet they never seemed to make the connection between our parenting style and theirs, even though their children were allegedly bad kids. There are no bad kids... only bad parents.
Wow, we've slipped far afield on really lame tangents IMHO. So, now your son, who sounds very nice, is a product of his environmental conditioning. My point EXACTLY. In the natural world, rape and eating other creatures (at times one's own specie) is normal, natural. You've created a moral compass for yourself and your son. Congratulations on bucking the natural consequence of Evolution and on rebuking BB's theories of total determinism, which are ludicrous and ignore our moral accountability... before man... and God.
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18-04-2013, 09:56 AM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
(18-04-2013 07:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Wow, we've slipped far afield on really lame tangents IMHO. So, now your son, who sounds very nice, is a product of his environmental conditioning. My point EXACTLY. In the natural world, rape and eating other creatures (at times one's own specie) is normal, natural. You've created a moral compass for yourself and your son. Congratulations on bucking the natural consequence of Evolution and on rebuking BB's theories of total determinism, which are ludicrous and ignore our moral accountability... before man... and God.

You're misusing the terms normal and natural. Likewise, you're conflating humans with other animals. If you want discuss whether rape and cannibalism are normal in the (non human) animal world, that's fodder for another thread.

Normal and natural in the context of this discussion:

Normal; Happening frequently, as to not be unusual or out of the ordinary.

Natural; Occurring on the planet Earth, in the absence of paranormal or supernatural influence.

From what I gather, you're using these terms to indicate "human nature" or, perhaps, evolutionary/genetic predisposition, which is incorrect.

And it also appears you've been applying someone else's positions to me in this argument. That explains, at least, some of the mischaracterizations you've made...

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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19-04-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
Quote:You're misusing the terms normal and natural.
Heaven forfend. People LOVE it when we Christians call things unnatural or abnormal.

And yes, I'm conflating humans and other animals because humans ARE animals or do you believe in Creation and not Evolution? Animals do certain things. Either humans make contrivances of their free will or they don't.

"Rape" and "murder" are invented terms for propagation and survival in your Darwinist field of view. Why not admit it?
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19-04-2013, 01:36 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2013 10:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
(18-04-2013 07:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  [y point EXACTLY. In the natural world, rape and eating other creatures (at times one's own specie) is normal, natural. You've created a moral compass for yourself and your son. Congratulations on bucking the natural consequence of Evolution and on rebuking BB's theories of total determinism, which are ludicrous and ignore our moral accountability... before man... and God.

No. Fail. You have not refuted anything. I already expalined why your "rape" crap is invalid in "group" settings. You ignored it, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. I have said nothing about "total determinism". Strawman-maker extraorinnaire. You saying some is "ludicrous" is NOT a response to anything, uppity Preacher Man WHo Wastes His Congregation's Money And Time. Before your talk about "moral accountability before the gods", you have to demonstrate the gods. You have not. You get another "F" for the day. Now go have sex with your Jebus, and leave the adults to talk.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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21-04-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
(18-04-2013 07:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:My son is twenty six years old. He is a peaceful, honest and compassionate man who has never been in a fist fight, used drugs, smoked or been in a courtroom. Throughout his life, my wife and I have consistently been complimented by friends, family and strangers on his manners, his willingness to help and his intelligence. He was raised with no yelling, no violence, no arbitrary rules and no religion. He was always given the opportunity to voice his opinions, choose his own style of dress, music etc. Funny thing is, the parents of his contemporaries often accused us of molly coddling. Yet they never seemed to make the connection between our parenting style and theirs, even though their children were allegedly bad kids. There are no bad kids... only bad parents.
Wow, we've slipped far afield on really lame tangents IMHO. So, now your son, who sounds very nice, is a product of his environmental conditioning. My point EXACTLY. In the natural world, rape and eating other creatures (at times one's own specie) is normal, natural. You've created a moral compass for yourself and your son. Congratulations on bucking the natural consequence of Evolution and on rebuking BB's theories of total determinism, which are ludicrous and ignore our moral accountability... before man... and God.

You might not have noticed (perhaps because you have no good response) my criticism of your claim to moral justification through god:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid292831

Care to comment? Or do you concede the argument?
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21-04-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
(19-04-2013 01:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And yes, I'm conflating humans and other animals because humans ARE animals or do you believe in Creation and not Evolution? Animals do certain things. Either humans make contrivances of their free will or they don't.

Here you are presupposing there can only be two options... either god did it or all humans are animals and all humans act exactly like all other animals. I both cases, you are incorrect.

Humans are animals with a much more highly developed frontal lobe. As such, we are much different than other animals. Even with respect to other apes. To take your presupposition to its logical conclusion, we should also assume that all animals should be able to breathe under water and that all animals should be able to fly. After all, an animal is an animal is an animal... in your contrivance.

Quote:"Rape" and "murder" are invented terms for propagation and survival in your Darwinist field of view. Why not admit it?

Don't put words in my mouth. And for sure, don't put your words in my mouth. I've made my positions clear and if you have to change them in order to assault them, that only speaks to the stability of your arguments. As has been mentioned, if you find the need to slay straw men, perhaps you should re-evaluate your positions.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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21-04-2013, 10:24 PM
RE: Go ahead, shred my homily for today
There is no longer any such thing as "Darwinism".
That's just fundie/creationist baloney attempting to deflect from the fact that the theory of Natural Selection/Evolution has come a LONG LONG way from the days of Wallace and Darwin. There has never been any major threat to it.
It's demonstrated every day in labs.
Calling it "Darwinism" betrays ignorance of every field of science, and an inherent bias against what there is overwhelming evidence for.
If you, SexuallyPleasingJebus have a better theory which accounts for what is observed, let's hear it. (You'll get a Nobel Prize, and your Jebus will be famous, and maybe even regain some of his long lost popularity .... so .... what exactly is stopping you ?)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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