Go figure. People just don't like communism.
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10-04-2012, 09:21 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
Quote:LOL at their h/c being better. Need a triple bypass or neurosurgery in Cuba. You'll be dying (literally) to get the US for some real health care. Get cancer and you'll be begging Castro to give you special government permission to call MD Anderson in Texas. Another LOL at your equation. Just saying that short of wanting to live in a heavy Hispanic culture I can't personally think of a good reason to want to live in Cuba.
Its not smart to get your information about healthcare from the likes of Santorum and crew. Santorum just got busted big time for lying about other countries health care systems in order to boost his own image.

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10-04-2012, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 09:28 AM by germanyt.)
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 09:08 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I know, in the US worked quite well for a good part of your history, it didn't worked so well for the countries you meddled with though, trust me, my family lost our house thanks to that sort of intervention. But that's not my point, i'm trying to say that capitalism is ideal, is it better than other systems? YES, but it's far from perfect and sometimes I think you fail to understand that, I'm sorry but you sound like you have blind faith in capitalism sometimes.
We live in a globalised world, I see our prices rising everyday because of the financial crisis in the US and Europe, this country is working hard and diligently to get out of its own problems, some economist even say we're exemplary, then why do I have to count pennies for the economic powers messed up things? how is that fair and ideal? who are the freeloaders now?



sorry for the rant Confused
No worries. You're points are legitimate. Sure corporations buy their way into policy. But it's the politician who accepts the offer. If there were a higher moral and ethical standard among elected officials we may not have issues like this but it's our own fault really. It's evident in the fact that people like David Vitter and Charlie Rangel get reelected. The scum of their own parties and they still get reelected. I believe are problems aren't inherently built into our economic model. We just rely on too many stupid people to pick the people in charge. We all need to stop being pussies and vote these fuckers out of a job.



Apathy, that's our problem.


(10-04-2012 09:21 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  
Quote:LOL at their h/c being better. Need a triple bypass or neurosurgery in Cuba. You'll be dying (literally) to get the US for some real health care. Get cancer and you'll be begging Castro to give you special government permission to call MD Anderson in Texas. Another LOL at your equation. Just saying that short of wanting to live in a heavy Hispanic culture I can't personally think of a good reason to want to live in Cuba.
Its not smart to get your information about healthcare from the likes of Santorum and crew. Santorum just got busted big time for lying about other countries health care systems in order to boost his own image.
Who is Santorum and 'crew'? I in no way whatsoever align with Santorum on anything. LOL that's funny to me.


Ran across this on wiki which pretty much sums up what I have to say. Other people tend to be better at expressing my ideas than I am.

Capitalism is an economy in which the entire economy is left in private
hands. The government's sole task is only to provide a safe legal
framework in which capitalism can operate safely without fear of fraud
etc...

Producers compete to see who can have the best and cheapest product in
order to survive economically. This means the consumer will be given
cheaper and better products.


People have to work hard in order to survive (as opposed to socialism and welfare states) keeping everyone working hard.


Innovators and inventors can take advantage of the free market to make a
profit. This makes capitalism countries the primary sources of
innovation and new technology.


If people work harder, they can make greater profit and improve
themselves. (human nature). Therefore, people work hard. By contrast, in
socialist states where the money is taken by the government for
distribution, there is little urge for economic betterment and hard work
because no matter how hard you work, you always make the same.


If capitalism is not followed, many disadvantages will come about.
Example: The U.S. The more money that the United States taxes from the
taxpayers and businesses
and pours into social programs (aka wellfare), the less will be the
taxpayers desire to work hard as his ability to obtain economic
betterment is eliminated. The wellfare recipients will loose the push to
work created by potential starvation and continue to not work (don't
blame them, there's no reason to). Eventually more and more taxpayers
will stop working and stop paying taxes in order to join the welfare
recipients in order to live with no work. This has and will cause nearly
all of the U.S.'s economic troubles.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-04-2012, 09:37 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 09:26 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 09:08 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I know, in the US worked quite well for a good part of your history, it didn't worked so well for the countries you meddled with though, trust me, my family lost our house thanks to that sort of intervention. But that's not my point, i'm trying to say that capitalism is ideal, is it better than other systems? YES, but it's far from perfect and sometimes I think you fail to understand that, I'm sorry but you sound like you have blind faith in capitalism sometimes.
We live in a globalised world, I see our prices rising everyday because of the financial crisis in the US and Europe, this country is working hard and diligently to get out of its own problems, some economist even say we're exemplary, then why do I have to count pennies for the economic powers messed up things? how is that fair and ideal? who are the freeloaders now?



sorry for the rant Confused
No worries. You're points are legitimate. Sure corporations buy their way into policy. But it's the politician who accepts the offer. If there were a higher moral and ethical standard among elected officials we may not have issues like this but it's our own fault really. It's evident in the fact that people like David Vitter and Charlie Rangel get reelected. The scum of their own parties and they still get reelected. I believe are problems aren't inherently built into our economic model. We just rely on too many stupid people to pick the people in charge. We all need to stop being pussies and vote these fuckers out of a job.



Apathy, that's our problem.


(10-04-2012 09:21 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  Its not smart to get your information about healthcare from the likes of Santorum and crew. Santorum just got busted big time for lying about other countries health care systems in order to boost his own image.
Who is Santorum and 'crew'? I in no way whatsoever align with Santorum on anything. LOL that's funny to me.


Ran across this on wiki which pretty much sums up what I have to say. Other people tend to be better at expressing my ideas than I am.

Capitalism is an economy in which the entire economy is left in private
hands. The government's sole task is only to provide a safe legal
framework in which capitalism can operate safely without fear of fraud
etc...

Producers compete to see who can have the best and cheapest product in
order to survive economically. This means the consumer will be given
cheaper and better products.


People have to work hard in order to survive (as opposed to socialism and welfare states) keeping everyone working hard.


Innovators and inventors can take advantage of the free market to make a
profit. This makes capitalism countries the primary sources of
innovation and new technology.


If people work harder, they can make greater profit and improve
themselves. (human nature). Therefore, people work hard. By contrast, in
socialist states where the money is taken by the government for
distribution, there is little urge for economic betterment and hard work
because no matter how hard you work, you always make the same.


If capitalism is not followed, many disadvantages will come about.
Example: The U.S. The more money that the United States taxes from the
taxpayers and businesses
and pours into social programs (aka wellfare), the less will be the
taxpayers desire to work hard as his ability to obtain economic
betterment is eliminated. The wellfare recipients will loose the push to
work created by potential starvation and continue to not work (don't
blame them, there's no reason to). Eventually more and more taxpayers
will stop working and stop paying taxes in order to join the welfare
recipients in order to live with no work. This has and will cause nearly
all of the U.S.'s economic troubles.

Then surely you do not partake in social programs and government programs as well, like food stamps, marriage tax loop holes, driving on govt funded roads, using govt funded schools like private and public schools (yes, vast majority of private schools are near completely funded by the govt).
Are you sure you arent tiberius?

"Praise Sweet Baby Jesus!" - RevJ. Cool

My Sites: www.jesuschristarcade.com - www.facebook.com/jesuschristarcade - Twitter@jesusarcade
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10-04-2012, 09:59 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 09:26 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 09:08 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I know, in the US worked quite well for a good part of your history, it didn't worked so well for the countries you meddled with though, trust me, my family lost our house thanks to that sort of intervention. But that's not my point, i'm trying to say that capitalism is ideal, is it better than other systems? YES, but it's far from perfect and sometimes I think you fail to understand that, I'm sorry but you sound like you have blind faith in capitalism sometimes.
We live in a globalised world, I see our prices rising everyday because of the financial crisis in the US and Europe, this country is working hard and diligently to get out of its own problems, some economist even say we're exemplary, then why do I have to count pennies for the economic powers messed up things? how is that fair and ideal? who are the freeloaders now?



sorry for the rant Confused
No worries. You're points are legitimate. Sure corporations buy their way into policy. But it's the politician who accepts the offer. If there were a higher moral and ethical standard among elected officials we may not have issues like this but it's our own fault really. It's evident in the fact that people like David Vitter and Charlie Rangel get reelected. The scum of their own parties and they still get reelected. I believe are problems aren't inherently built into our economic model. We just rely on too many stupid people to pick the people in charge. We all need to stop being pussies and vote these fuckers out of a job.



Apathy, that's our problem.


(10-04-2012 09:21 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  Its not smart to get your information about healthcare from the likes of Santorum and crew. Santorum just got busted big time for lying about other countries health care systems in order to boost his own image.
Who is Santorum and 'crew'? I in no way whatsoever align with Santorum on anything. LOL that's funny to me.


Ran across this on wiki which pretty much sums up what I have to say. Other people tend to be better at expressing my ideas than I am.

Capitalism is an economy in which the entire economy is left in private
hands. The government's sole task is only to provide a safe legal
framework in which capitalism can operate safely without fear of fraud
etc...

Producers compete to see who can have the best and cheapest product in
order to survive economically. This means the consumer will be given
cheaper and better products.


People have to work hard in order to survive (as opposed to socialism and welfare states) keeping everyone working hard.


Innovators and inventors can take advantage of the free market to make a
profit. This makes capitalism countries the primary sources of
innovation and new technology.


If people work harder, they can make greater profit and improve
themselves. (human nature). Therefore, people work hard. By contrast, in
socialist states where the money is taken by the government for
distribution, there is little urge for economic betterment and hard work
because no matter how hard you work, you always make the same.


If capitalism is not followed, many disadvantages will come about.
Example: The U.S. The more money that the United States taxes from the
taxpayers and businesses
and pours into social programs (aka wellfare), the less will be the
taxpayers desire to work hard as his ability to obtain economic
betterment is eliminated. The wellfare recipients will loose the push to
work created by potential starvation and continue to not work (don't
blame them, there's no reason to). Eventually more and more taxpayers
will stop working and stop paying taxes in order to join the welfare
recipients in order to live with no work. This has and will cause nearly
all of the U.S.'s economic troubles.
I think our economic system may contribute to the problem, it's not the only cause as there are many, you named apathy and corruption those are in there for sure, but the economic system makes the corporations see the state as a market they have to control in order to boost their profit, it's the same rationality, and the system has embedded the idea that everything is a market, I'm surprised they don't sell air yet.
And they push their way into the government as hard as they can, because it's a competition, and they must win or they'll lose it all, that's what capitalism is all about "in the invisible hand we trust" should be the motto, the two basic principles of capitalism are wrong: scarcity and infinite need, the first because technology can create abundance (or at least more than enough resources) and austerity can limit the second one, add collaboration and solidarity instead of competition and greed to the equation and we have an ideal system. The problem is the human factor, how do we deal with abusive behaviour? I don't know for sure, but if marketing can create needs and orientate culture towards consumption it probably can do it the other way around, and law enforcement can deal with the hard cases. And on top of that we don't even need to abolish private property or impose things by force to such system to work, but promoting the idea that things are right and everything is perfect surely won't change people's mentality and won't lead to the needed shift in our cultures.
Some things are hints that this ideas are viable, coops and file sharing/copyleft movements for example. Of course that's not all there is, material goods are the most difficult part but I think it can be done.
Some say that competition motivates people to be better, that may be true, but we don't have to make competition an essential part of everything to make it work, we can have that edge by making some sort of game that gives people reputation or something like that to include the competitive edge to the system.

It's all about creativity, some sort of natural selection of social-economic-political systems, I think capitalism still survives not because it's the fittest, it's because we force the social environment to support it, it's like breeding chihuahuas, they're lame but they succeed because people don't let them fight with bigger and stronger dogs and fashion says they're cool. I say we kill the fucking chihuahuas and get some german shepard, or something like that Big Grin

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10-04-2012, 10:17 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 09:37 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 09:26 AM)germanyt Wrote:  No worries. You're points are legitimate. Sure corporations buy their way into policy. But it's the politician who accepts the offer. If there were a higher moral and ethical standard among elected officials we may not have issues like this but it's our own fault really. It's evident in the fact that people like David Vitter and Charlie Rangel get reelected. The scum of their own parties and they still get reelected. I believe are problems aren't inherently built into our economic model. We just rely on too many stupid people to pick the people in charge. We all need to stop being pussies and vote these fuckers out of a job.



Apathy, that's our problem.


Who is Santorum and 'crew'? I in no way whatsoever align with Santorum on anything. LOL that's funny to me.


Ran across this on wiki which pretty much sums up what I have to say. Other people tend to be better at expressing my ideas than I am.

Capitalism is an economy in which the entire economy is left in private
hands. The government's sole task is only to provide a safe legal
framework in which capitalism can operate safely without fear of fraud
etc...

Producers compete to see who can have the best and cheapest product in
order to survive economically. This means the consumer will be given
cheaper and better products.


People have to work hard in order to survive (as opposed to socialism and welfare states) keeping everyone working hard.


Innovators and inventors can take advantage of the free market to make a
profit. This makes capitalism countries the primary sources of
innovation and new technology.


If people work harder, they can make greater profit and improve
themselves. (human nature). Therefore, people work hard. By contrast, in
socialist states where the money is taken by the government for
distribution, there is little urge for economic betterment and hard work
because no matter how hard you work, you always make the same.


If capitalism is not followed, many disadvantages will come about.
Example: The U.S. The more money that the United States taxes from the
taxpayers and businesses
and pours into social programs (aka wellfare), the less will be the
taxpayers desire to work hard as his ability to obtain economic
betterment is eliminated. The wellfare recipients will loose the push to
work created by potential starvation and continue to not work (don't
blame them, there's no reason to). Eventually more and more taxpayers
will stop working and stop paying taxes in order to join the welfare
recipients in order to live with no work. This has and will cause nearly
all of the U.S.'s economic troubles.

Then surely you do not partake in social programs and government programs as well, like food stamps, marriage tax loop holes, driving on govt funded roads, using govt funded schools like private and public schools (yes, vast majority of private schools are near completely funded by the govt).
Are you sure you arent tiberius?
I don't think you understand my position. I'm not opposed to social programs or welfare. I think the benefit to the economy outweighs the drawbacks for the most part.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-04-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
Worth of something is figured mostly through opinion.
gold may be worth shitloads to you, but to me it is just a worthless metal. Someone may enjoy wearing gold, I think gold looks shitty and is far over rated.
Now, with that said, since we know worth is determined through opinion I can easily keep saying "you need to work harder!" This doesnt make the worker more rich, it makes ME more rich.
So am I suprised that all of these right wingers are complaining about how "worthless" and "lazy" everyone is? DUH! Of course they are. If those people arent making them rich then they are obviously lazy and worthless.
What does it take to turn a normally kind person into a backstabbing greedmonger? Introduce a handful of fiat currency. Because a handful of government printed papers decides who is worth something (i.e. "successful") and who is to be taken advantage of.

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10-04-2012, 10:57 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 11:01 AM by germanyt.)
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 10:42 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  Worth of something is figured mostly through opinion.
gold may be worth shitloads to you, but to me it is just a worthless metal. Someone may enjoy wearing gold, I think gold looks shitty and is far over rated.
Now, with that said, since we know worth is determined through opinion I can easily keep saying "you need to work harder!" This doesnt make the worker more rich, it makes ME more rich.
So am I suprised that all of these right wingers are complaining about how "worthless" and "lazy" everyone is? DUH! Of course they are. If those people arent making them rich then they are obviously lazy and worthless.
What does it take to turn a normally kind person into a backstabbing greedmonger? Introduce a handful of fiat currency. Because a handful of government printed papers decides who is worth something (i.e. "successful") and who is to be taken advantage of.
But a person who works hard has an opportunity to move up the ladder. From garbage men to CEOs no one can expect to gain something from not working hard. Even most of the worlds billionaires and millionaires are first generation. They found an opportunity to make a lot of money and afterwards can take it easy. Capitalist economies under democratic governments like the US allow anyone (and I mean everyone) the opportunity to work and make a wage that they can live off of. If that person makes the right decisions and jumps on the right opportunities they can be wealthy. But just because that system doesn't make everyone rich doesn't mean we should form a system where no one does. I didn't grow up with a lot of money so it will be harder for me to make it. I have to find a way to support a family and pursue an education. Then I have to put in a lot of effort to get in a position to take a risk. If that risk pays off I get rich. If it doesn't then I might go bust. But at least the opportunity was presented to me. Hopefully if I manage to become wealthy then that same road will be easier for my family.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-04-2012, 11:00 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
I think that the fear of starvation is the best motivator for people to work is simplistic and backwards. Simplistic because human nature is far more rich than just the drive for satisfying basic needs, we thrive when we do things we enjoy when we can satisfy our curiosity or making beautiful and useful things, but we don't promote that kind of thinking, we have turned work from being something it should make us happy to something we loath and fear. And it's backwards because threatening someone with not being able to eat or to feed their family on the basis they can't get a descent job and then blaming that same person for not working "hard enough" is irrational, the very same laws of economy say there must be some unemployment or else there would be too much inflation, and then the same system blames those who are unemployed for that situation, it's medieval!

I understand the need to encourage hard work, I also think there are better ways to do so instead of threatening people to starve them and their families to death

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10-04-2012, 11:08 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(10-04-2012 11:00 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think that the fear of starvation is the best motivator for people to work is simplistic and backwards. Simplistic because human nature is far more rich than just the drive for satisfying basic needs, we thrive when we do things we enjoy when we can satisfy our curiosity or making beautiful and useful things, but we don't promote that kind of thinking, we have turned work from being something it should make us happy to something we loath and fear. And it's backwards because threatening someone with not being able to eat or to feed their family on the basis they can't get a descent job and then blaming that same person for not working "hard enough" is irrational, the very same laws of economy say there must be some unemployment or else there would be too much inflation, and then the same system blames those who are unemployed for that situation, it's medieval!

I understand the need to encourage hard work, I also think there are better ways to do so instead of threatening people to starve them and their families to death
I don't see starvation as a motivator. I see wealth as a motivator. I'll never starve. If I have bus tables to make a paycheck I will. Basics are all I require and all anyone should require. Food, shelter, and clothing. I could live out my life with nothing else. But the dream is what keeps me focused and working. I may not ever be a millionaire but I would like to have a paid for 3000 sq ft house and nice boat and truck. Knowing that I worked hard, provided a better life for my kids than I had, and taking it easy during retirement would satisfy me.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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10-04-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
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