Go figure. People just don't like communism.
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11-04-2012, 10:28 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 09:00 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 06:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Ah! you don't like Rawls, I see Tongue

I would challenge the idea that no individual is obligate to any other, I explained the reasons why I think that here.
I read that post. I commented on the thread too. I still maintain that I'm not. And no one is. If I'm a millionaire and an unemployed guy lives in the trailer across the street I'm not obligated to provide him with anything. Sure, it would be a nice thing to do to buy him some groceries or pay his rent so he's not hungry and homeless but I'm certainly not obliged to help. I am not responsible for him and he isn't for me. If he doesn't want to be homeless and hungry then he should find work. It'd be more respectful IMO to offer the guy a job maintaining my lawn or cleaning my pool. He can earn his way.
So you're talking about a direct obligation, yeah, I'm with you on that, you personally wouldn't have an obligation. I maintain that we have a collective obligation, with no clearly defined parties. It's like every right has an obligation attached to it, like the two sides of a coin, there are some collective rights (healthy environment, etc) that are for the people but not specific for one person, in the same way there are collective obligations, I think that providing a decent life for everyone is one of this collective obligations.

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11-04-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 10:28 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think that providing a decent life for everyone is one of this collective obligations.
And I don't think that this differs among party lines. Both liberals and conservatives alike both genuinely believe that they are doing what is best for society. For the most part at least. What constitutes a decent life can vary greatly from person to person. People that are severely poverty stricken might view a shack with running water and a job to go to as a decent life. So many Americans think that to have a decent life you must have a nice house/apt, new clothes, free health care, a 50K/year job, etc. I personally feel like this country provides the tools for everyone to live a decent life by their own standards. If someone feels like not having a BMW is unacceptable then they have the opportunity to work towards that goal.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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11-04-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 10:34 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 10:28 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think that providing a decent life for everyone is one of this collective obligations.
And I don't think that this differs among party lines. Both liberals and conservatives alike both genuinely believe that they are doing what is best for society. For the most part at least. What constitutes a decent life can vary greatly from person to person. People that are severely poverty stricken might view a shack with running water and a job to go to as a decent life. So many Americans think that to have a decent life you must have a nice house/apt, new clothes, free health care, a 50K/year job, etc. I personally feel like this country provides the tools for everyone to live a decent life by their own standards. If someone feels like not having a BMW is unacceptable then they have the opportunity to work towards that goal.
Then we should discuss what's an acceptable life standard and what isn't, is there a too low standard? I think it's safe to say this is a yes, I someone can't even have the most basic needs covered then that's too low. Is there a too high standard? this is more tricky, I would say yes because I'm convinced some ways of living are too expensive for society to bear without leading some individuals to the lowest standards, making the higher unjust.

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11-04-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 12:29 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 10:34 AM)germanyt Wrote:  And I don't think that this differs among party lines. Both liberals and conservatives alike both genuinely believe that they are doing what is best for society. For the most part at least. What constitutes a decent life can vary greatly from person to person. People that are severely poverty stricken might view a shack with running water and a job to go to as a decent life. So many Americans think that to have a decent life you must have a nice house/apt, new clothes, free health care, a 50K/year job, etc. I personally feel like this country provides the tools for everyone to live a decent life by their own standards. If someone feels like not having a BMW is unacceptable then they have the opportunity to work towards that goal.
Then we should discuss what's an acceptable life standard and what isn't, is there a too low standard? I think it's safe to say this is a yes, I someone can't even have the most basic needs covered then that's too low. Is there a too high standard? this is more tricky, I would say yes because I'm convinced some ways of living are too expensive for society to bear without leading some individuals to the lowest standards, making the higher unjust.
I agree that certain conditions are just unacceptable. Problem is that if you decide that food, shelter, and clothing (I find these to be pretty basic necessities) are entitled then you'll create waves of people who simply give up on their current conditions to live easy with free food, shelter, and clothing. These people will ultimately drain our society of it's resources and not only harm the economy but also run the risk of breeding generations of welfare dependents. I don't think it's good for a country to have people that feel like they don't really have to try hard to get by.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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11-04-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 01:04 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 12:29 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Then we should discuss what's an acceptable life standard and what isn't, is there a too low standard? I think it's safe to say this is a yes, I someone can't even have the most basic needs covered then that's too low. Is there a too high standard? this is more tricky, I would say yes because I'm convinced some ways of living are too expensive for society to bear without leading some individuals to the lowest standards, making the higher unjust.
I agree that certain conditions are just unacceptable. Problem is that if you decide that food, shelter, and clothing (I find these to be pretty basic necessities) are entitled then you'll create waves of people who simply give up on their current conditions to live easy with free food, shelter, and clothing. These people will ultimately drain our society of it's resources and not only harm the economy but also run the risk of breeding generations of welfare dependents. I don't think it's good for a country to have people that feel like they don't really have to try hard to get by.
that can be attacked with a good marketing campaign, in 2001 when almost half of the people lost their jobs here, there were a lot of welfare plans but most of the people just didn't want to receive the money, in the moment when people most needed help it was bad seen to ask for it unless it was in extreme cases. The idea behind it was that we had to get back our "culture of labour" that we lost during the neoliberal decade of the 90s. It happened spontaneously (and not everyone agreed), but I think that if we make the necessary changes, working can be seen as something desirable and welfare something shameful, if that ideas stick the number of people abusing the system would decrease greatly, add some control to check that those who ask for help meet the requirements and promote full employment policies and we may have a working system.

I know it sounds utopian, but I think we have to at least try to find a better system, we can't just say "it works good enough" that's lazy thinking Sad

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11-04-2012, 04:03 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 03:19 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 01:04 PM)germanyt Wrote:  I agree that certain conditions are just unacceptable. Problem is that if you decide that food, shelter, and clothing (I find these to be pretty basic necessities) are entitled then you'll create waves of people who simply give up on their current conditions to live easy with free food, shelter, and clothing. These people will ultimately drain our society of it's resources and not only harm the economy but also run the risk of breeding generations of welfare dependents. I don't think it's good for a country to have people that feel like they don't really have to try hard to get by.
that can be attacked with a good marketing campaign, in 2001 when almost half of the people lost their jobs here, there were a lot of welfare plans but most of the people just didn't want to receive the money, in the moment when people most needed help it was bad seen to ask for it unless it was in extreme cases. The idea behind it was that we had to get back our "culture of labour" that we lost during the neoliberal decade of the 90s. It happened spontaneously (and not everyone agreed), but I think that if we make the necessary changes, working can be seen as something desirable and welfare something shameful, if that ideas stick the number of people abusing the system would decrease greatly, add some control to check that those who ask for help meet the requirements and promote full employment policies and we may have a working system.

I know it sounds utopian, but I think we have to at least try to find a better system, we can't just say "it works good enough" that's lazy thinking Sad
What model would we pull from though? I don't believe there is a better or more productive system in the world. We have jackasses just like any country but overall our Constitution has laid out a system that has been more successful than any ever seen before. It seems no matter what changes we make it's either viewed as right wing or left wing. If we head right we become authoritative and oppresive. If we head left we become complacent and dependent. What is there for our system to do but go right or left?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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11-04-2012, 04:51 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 04:03 PM)germanyt Wrote:  What model would we pull from though? I don't believe there is a better or more productive system in the world. We have jackasses just like any country but overall our Constitution has laid out a system that has been more successful than any ever seen before. It seems no matter what changes we make it's either viewed as right wing or left wing. If we head right we become authoritative and oppresive. If we head left we become complacent and dependent. What is there for our system to do but go right or left?
I would say that depends very much on the critera by which you measure sucsess, theres no denying the genius of te american constitution and certain in the avenue of potential it is hard to think of its better. I think though it is argueable weather that potential has been or ever will be realised.

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11-04-2012, 05:02 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
Quote:These people will ultimately drain our society of it's resources and not only harm the economy but also run the risk of breeding generations of welfare dependents. I don't think it's good for a country to have people that feel like they don't really have to try hard to get by.
Sorry bro, but the welfare dependents are on your (right) side of the fence. The VAST majority of welfare dependents in America are white, right wing, evangelical, conservatives who vote Republican. this is well documented and has been the same since day one of the welfare system.



Sorry, but it is obvious that those on the right are the biggest "drain" on society.

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11-04-2012, 06:02 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
(11-04-2012 04:03 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(11-04-2012 03:19 PM)nach_in Wrote:  that can be attacked with a good marketing campaign, in 2001 when almost half of the people lost their jobs here, there were a lot of welfare plans but most of the people just didn't want to receive the money, in the moment when people most needed help it was bad seen to ask for it unless it was in extreme cases. The idea behind it was that we had to get back our "culture of labour" that we lost during the neoliberal decade of the 90s. It happened spontaneously (and not everyone agreed), but I think that if we make the necessary changes, working can be seen as something desirable and welfare something shameful, if that ideas stick the number of people abusing the system would decrease greatly, add some control to check that those who ask for help meet the requirements and promote full employment policies and we may have a working system.

I know it sounds utopian, but I think we have to at least try to find a better system, we can't just say "it works good enough" that's lazy thinking Sad
What model would we pull from though? I don't believe there is a better or more productive system in the world. We have jackasses just like any country but overall our Constitution has laid out a system that has been more successful than any ever seen before. It seems no matter what changes we make it's either viewed as right wing or left wing. If we head right we become authoritative and oppresive. If we head left we become complacent and dependent. What is there for our system to do but go right or left?
Is there only two options? right or left? can't we find something that is better than both? that's why I insist we have to get creative. I don't like the destructive position some people have, they don't like anything and thus they want to bring everything down, I believe we have to be more positive about this things, we know there are some problems, that the system, as good as it may be, still has things that don't work well enough, is the best of the human nature (if there's such thing) the ability to solve complex problems, why would we conform with some imperfect system when we can make it better, maybe never perfect, but better than we have.
Actually if you think it twice, is similar to what you say, that those who work harder get the best out of life, so we should apply that philosophy not only to our individual life but to our society too, if the system in which we live is the result of our collective effort as a community, then we are not working enough as we still have unsolved issues, we could even consider the impact we have on the natural environment as a growing debt we are taking, it could be described as we are abusing the ecological welfare... or something like that Tongue

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15-04-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: Go figure. People just don't like communism.
11% of Americans wouldn't mind communism, whilst our congress has a 9% approval rating.

ROFL!!!
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