God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
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16-11-2012, 07:20 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Hey, Starcrash.

At least with religious law you know where you stand. With secular law, it's all just a sham. Rich people act with impunity and always have. The law doesn't mean anything as far as they are concerned. It just makes the odd example out of someone with a slap on the wrist (see, the law is applied equally!) but lets most of them just do their thing. By and large, secular law is designed to maintain the status quo for the elites, not to make life fair for everyone. It's simply about control. That goes for both of them.

(Just incase there's any confusion, I'm not saying religious law is better. They're both equally shit.)

Both systems strive to be moral and they both fail miserably.

Both systems are identical save for one thing; their authority comes from different places. Other than that, no different.

Both systems are, at best, necessary evils, nothing more.

But the Hobbesian idea that without the rule of law the life of man would be nasty, bruthish and short, is just preposterous.

Both systems of law can lick my balls clean.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-11-2012, 08:29 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Awwww, look at the cutsie-wootsie little cynic! Did you just discover that life's not perfect? D'awww. Tongue

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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16-11-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Awwwwwwwwww, go fuck yourself. Yes you can. Yes you can, you poopsie woopsie shmoopsie floopsie.

Some of us have actual opinions. Let me know when you care to use your words and share yours. You know, beyond, "people who criticise things are dumb-faced poopie heads!"

If you really want me to go into the history of civilisation, the history of law, the Dunbar number, pre-civilisational justice systems, the legitimisation of political authority, current alternatives to the punitive model, Hobbes and Leviathan, the Ideological State Aparatus and, say, Bentham, the panopticon and the birth of the penetentiary (not even getting into the proliferation of private prisons and the over representation of minorities in prison populations), I will. But only if you ask nicely Cool
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16-11-2012, 09:26 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Yes, I know political theory. The fact that you take it so seriously is what's cute. It's a little bit like I and I complaining about US military interventionism, only you're not as trollishly boneheaded and much better spoken.

The point is, the system's fucked up, and unfucking it basically requires a global revolution, so bitching about it on a forum, especially in a thread that doesn't really directly relate (only tangentially) gives the perception that this is something you've just learned or something, since you're naive and passionate enough to argue over it, and proud enough of it that you're willing to list all the facets that you've learned.


I don't know, it's just cute, like a freshman at uni talking about how they're a beer expert.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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16-11-2012, 09:39 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Quote:Both systems strive to be moral and they both fail miserably.
Or maybe our moral values fail miserably?

Quote:Both systems are identical save for one thing; their authority comes from different places. Other than that, no different.
Well, except that one is secular the other one is not.


Quote:But the Hobbesian idea that without the rule of law the life of man would be nasty, bruthish and short, is just preposterous.
Agreed. But then it would be governed by norms and traditions - which often lead to law.


Quote:Both systems of law can lick my balls clean.
That sounds rather salty.


Law is a pretty important system when you have to hold a larger group of communities together. It´s not like the rich and powerful could not exploit people without law... I´m not saying that everybody is equal but I´m quite glad that the law secures my property, rights to life and to not get randomly beat up since I´m neither rich nor strong. I do not know how it is where you live but where I come from "law" actually works.
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16-11-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Dude,

You have nothing to say. For real. You are adding precisely zero to this conversation. All you're doing is attacking me. That's it. You're talking loud, but you ain't sayin' nuthin'. I'm sure you think all this calling me cute shit is cute, but it's weak sauce. So I don't know what you think exists between you and me, I don't know why you want to take shots at me, maybe I pissed in your Cheerios, maybe you don't like smart people, maybe you are impotent and want to feel like a big man by taking anonymous shots at someone, I don't frankly care. But there is nothing between you and me. I don't know you from a hole in the wall. I don't really remember seeing your name before today. So if you wanted to piss me off, you can check that off your bucket list. Mission accomplished. Gold star. If you wanted to demonstrate what an intellectual feeb you are, you nailed that one too. But can we move on now? I get insulted by worthier people than you and it gets just as tired, just as quick when they do it.

The one bright side is that I agree that the system doesn't need fixing, it needs to be replaced on a global scale. But I hate to break it to you, forums aren't for action. I do my work in the real world. I come here to chat, learn what other people have to say, clear my head, that kind of thing. I try to avoid the mouth breathers as much as possible, but you are a particularly pesky reoccurring fly in my ointment.

So you go back to your world where everything is fucked and you're oh so better than everyone else because that's the one thing you know but you've thrown up your hands so you take a flying shit on anyone gauche enough to discuss it and leave the conversations to the adults. Or better yet, avoid meaningful conversations all together and go post in the knitting forum. Maybe you can get the recipe for Schweatty Balls.

ON EDIT: Hey, Gaest. Gotta run to work, but I like your post and want to respond to it. Talk ta ya later.
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16-11-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(16-11-2012 09:39 AM)Gaest Wrote:  
Quote:Both systems strive to be moral and they both fail miserably.
Or maybe our moral values fail miserably?
I beg to differ. In order to blame "our" moral values, there'd have to be a set of such values that "we" actually all agree on, don't you think?

(16-11-2012 09:39 AM)Gaest Wrote:  Well, except that one is secular the other one is not.
That's exactly what Ghost said, is it not? One derives it's validity from the authority "religion", the other one does not (= secular).

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16-11-2012, 10:27 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(16-11-2012 09:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 09:39 AM)Gaest Wrote:  Well, except that one is secular the other one is not.
That's exactly what Ghost said, is it not? One derives it's validity from the authority "religion", the other one does not (= secular).
Oh, sorry about that. I concede that point.


Quote:
Quote:Or maybe our moral values fail miserably?
I
beg to differ. In order to blame "our" moral values, there'd have to be
a set of such values that "we" actually all agree on, don't you think?
It was not a rhetorical question. Just like the laws differ from country to country, values differ from country to country (or state to state). The places I have been in Northern Europe seem to have a good deal of common values though. I´m not sure about the USA but don´t they have shared values too?
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16-11-2012, 12:11 PM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(16-11-2012 09:52 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Dude,

You have nothing to say. For real. You are adding precisely zero to this conversation. All you're doing is attacking me. That's it. You're talking loud, but you ain't sayin' nuthin'. I'm sure you think all this calling me cute shit is cute, but it's weak sauce. So I don't know what you think exists between you and me, I don't know why you want to take shots at me, maybe I pissed in your Cheerios, maybe you don't like smart people, maybe you are impotent and want to feel like a big man by taking anonymous shots at someone, I don't frankly care. But there is nothing between you and me. I don't know you from a hole in the wall. I don't really remember seeing your name before today. So if you wanted to piss me off, you can check that off your bucket list. Mission accomplished. Gold star. If you wanted to demonstrate what an intellectual feeb you are, you nailed that one too. But can we move on now? I get insulted by worthier people than you and it gets just as tired, just as quick when they do it.

The one bright side is that I agree that the system doesn't need fixing, it needs to be replaced on a global scale. But I hate to break it to you, forums aren't for action. I do my work in the real world. I come here to chat, learn what other people have to say, clear my head, that kind of thing. I try to avoid the mouth breathers as much as possible, but you are a particularly pesky reoccurring fly in my ointment.

So you go back to your world where everything is fucked and you're oh so better than everyone else because that's the one thing you know but you've thrown up your hands so you take a flying shit on anyone gauche enough to discuss it and leave the conversations to the adults. Or better yet, avoid meaningful conversations all together and go post in the knitting forum. Maybe you can get the recipe for Schweatty Balls.

ON EDIT: Hey, Gaest. Gotta run to work, but I like your post and want to respond to it. Talk ta ya later.
Dude. Cool your jets.

You take things *way* too personally. You also take political theory way too seriously, which was the whole point.

As long as there are rich people, there will be exceptions in the rules for them. And there will always be rich people as long as there is income inequality, and there will always be income inequality as long as there is scarcity.

And bitching about scarcity is a little like complaining about gravity. Sure, it would be great if earth had a gravitational field of 0.8G instead of 1.0G. But it doesn't.

If you want to get rid of rich people, get yourself a science/engineering degree and start working on whatever technologies you think will lead to a post-scarcity economy. We don't know what that post-scarcity economy will look like, or whether it will be good or bad, but for sure the rich people won't matter anymore.

That's my point. Feeling better now you know it isn't a personal attack?




Anyway, as for the original topic, I consider the question moot. I treat competing ethical standards for what they are: competing memes, and may the fittest one win.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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16-11-2012, 12:31 PM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
I'm not well versed in political theory, so I could be totally off base here. But, it's not clear to me that what humanity needs is a new political system. I thought the problems that plague us are internal, not systematic. Problems like: the ability for humans to deceive one another, greed, tribalism. I can't conceive of any moral system which will "solve" problems like these (although, I admit, the idea of somehow solving scarcity sounds promising perhaps). These problems have been plaguing our species for how long now? At least as long as we've been recording our own histories?

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Not sure.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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