God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
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17-11-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(17-11-2012 07:48 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Being moral, however says nothing about weather hey are "right" or not.

It does, by definition... not the definition of moral, but the definition of "right" (see #21 and #22).

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17-11-2012, 06:32 PM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
I'd say the main difference between the two is that religion asserts a morality and forces it never to be questioned because god willed it.

Where as secular morality is allowed to be questioned, scrutinized, ripped apart and worked on.

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18-11-2012, 03:40 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(17-11-2012 05:57 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(17-11-2012 07:48 AM)Humakt Wrote:  Being moral, however says nothing about weather hey are "right" or not.

It does, by definition... not the definition of moral, but the definition of "right" (see #21 and #22).
Thats kind of my point, two opposites can both be right, when viewed through the lens of morality. On the whole words like right and wrong fail miserably to work properly with morality, if you deal with it out side the absolute sense, as soon as theres any comparative stuff right and wrong dont really work. But what I meant was that a moral code can say that people A are worthy of death, thus killing them is "right" and moral. I have no hesistation in saying genocide can be moral, I however balk at the idea of saying it can be right. But, its my fault for using the word right even in "", I should have gone with value posative or something else vague.

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18-11-2012, 08:30 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Hey, Starcrash.

The reason you're stunned is because you haven't heard what I've said.

I said explicitly that it's not a binary issue. It's not a matter of 'either religious law or secular law'. So when I say I want an alternative to secular law I am absolutely not saying I want religious law. There are more options.

I have gone to lengths to explain that PUNITIVE LAW ITSELF is the issue. Punitive law, whether secular or religious, is the problem. The alternative is something other than punitive law.

Again, this is not binary either. The options are not punitive law or Hobbesian nasty, brutish and short anarchy. Restorative justice is one alternative to punitive law. There are difficulties in just applying it as a blanket alternative, but it simply illustrates that there are other ways.

To answer your questions:
1 - I don't like the SYSTEM of law that is in place (see the Pirsig quote).
2 - I enjoy the laws as much as I enjoy being raped less and I am glad that they are in place for that reason; however, I'd prefer a rape-free system; furthermore, not only do I believe that they cannot be applied equally, but that they are used as a tool of oppression.
3 - Of course laws can work without religious influence (accepting that Western law is heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition), it's just that secular law is to religious law as dog is to cat; they are of the same genus and I suggest a new genus, not a different species within the same genus and certainly not no genus.
4 - Yes, most certainly, I know exactly what I mean Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-11-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(18-11-2012 03:40 AM)Humakt Wrote:  
(17-11-2012 05:57 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It does, by definition... not the definition of moral, but the definition of "right" (see #21 and #22).
Thats kind of my point, two opposites can both be right, when viewed through the lens of morality. On the whole words like right and wrong fail miserably to work properly with morality, if you deal with it out side the absolute sense, as soon as theres any comparative stuff right and wrong dont really work. But what I meant was that a moral code can say that people A are worthy of death, thus killing them is "right" and moral. I have no hesistation in saying genocide can be moral, I however balk at the idea of saying it can be right. But, its my fault for using the word right even in "", I should have gone with value posative or something else vague.
I followed what you were saying -- if I may try to sum it up, it's that there is no "objective morality" or code that everyone can agree to live by, therefore a person can say that the bible is just as moral as secular law because they're defining those morals using 2 different measurement systems. And I'm not actually disagreeing with any of that.

However, it's important to note that the Christians are using a selecting measuring system... they don't measure everything the same. When we talk about what is "right" or "moral", there are things that we all agree on; the go-to example that almost everyone uses is slavery, because there are almost literally no advocates of slavery in the western world, either inside or outside of the church. When I listed my comparison of God's law and secular law, I tried to choose ideas that even a Christian would agree are "right" or "wrong" in the same way that I do. The Christians are not calling slavery "moral", but instead ignoring, denying, or downplaying the fact that God's law regulates slavery instead of forbidding it.

So while we don't all agree on what makes something right, we do agree on some issues, and God's law does not agree with us. If one wanted to define morality as "God's standard", I'm not sure I could persuade them that their moral relativism as mistaken or misplaced... if that person was actually using that standard. But Christians don't use that standard, and so we criticize God's law as a bad standard (i.e. immoral).

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18-11-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(18-11-2012 08:30 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

The reason you're stunned is because you haven't heard what I've said.

I said explicitly that it's not a binary issue. It's not a matter of 'either religious law or secular law'. So when I say I want an alternative to secular law I am absolutely not saying I want religious law. There are more options.

I have gone to lengths to explain that PUNITIVE LAW ITSELF is the issue. Punitive law, whether secular or religious, is the problem. The alternative is something other than punitive law.

Again, this is not binary either. The options are not punitive law or Hobbesian nasty, brutish and short anarchy. Restorative justice is one alternative to punitive law. There are difficulties in just applying it as a blanket alternative, but it simply illustrates that there are other ways.

To answer your questions:
1 - I don't like the SYSTEM of law that is in place (see the Pirsig quote).
2 - I enjoy the laws as much as I enjoy being raped less and I am glad that they are in place for that reason; however, I'd prefer a rape-free system; furthermore, not only do I believe that they cannot be applied equally, but that they are used as a tool of oppression.
3 - Of course laws can work without religious influence (accepting that Western law is heavily influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition), it's just that secular law is to religious law as dog is to cat; they are of the same genus and I suggest a new genus, not a different species within the same genus and certainly not no genus.
4 - Yes, most certainly, I know exactly what I mean Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Thanks for your attempt to suggest an alternative, but you didn't actually do that. Now I got that you don't like the idea of a "punitive system", but law is punitive -- it has to be, otherwise it would be synonymous with "guideline" or "suggestion". You suggest "restorative justice", but even that requires punishment while "restoring", because otherwise the criminals would have no incentive to do it. And restorative justice is not an alternative to law but rather the punishment for breaking laws, secular or otherwise... in other words, it's a straw man because you're arguing against a system of punishment rather than the rules for deciding what needs to be punished. You can't enact restorative justice without having a set of rules for which one would need "restoring", and that set of rules is either religious or non-religious, secular or "God's law".

So I re-iterate that you don't understand what's meant by "secular law". Don't accuse me of not hearing what you said... I've addressed it and rejected it because it's still off-point. If your argument against secular law doesn't actually discuss the content of laws but keeps focusing on punishment, you're wasting my time.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-11-2012, 09:54 AM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Hey, Starcrash.

In my opinion, you do not comprehend what restorative justice is. You can either take that to heart and educate yourself or you can believe that you do in fact understand it. I leave it to you. I have explained things in detail already. There's no point trying again. I don't want to waste your time or mine.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-11-2012, 01:27 PM
God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
(18-11-2012 09:54 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Starcrash.

In my opinion, you do not comprehend what restorative justice is. You can either take that to heart and educate yourself or you can believe that you do in fact understand it. I leave it to you. I have explained things in detail already. There's no point trying again. I don't want to waste your time or mine.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

So what is your ideal political system then? I know you've mentioned Restorative Justice a few times. How would you implement that exactly. Use the US as your example.

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18-11-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
I wonder what restorative justice says about, say, murder. Can't exactly bring someone back to life, or undo a rape.

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18-11-2012, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2012 03:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
Violating God's law means Ima gonna get buttfucked and burned in hell forever.

Violating Man's law means I at least gotta shot at rotating pitcher and catcher with my cellmate.

The former ain't gonna happen regardless of what I do. The latter is entirely dependent on what I do. Not a tough call. ... But Girly's ultimately a pragmatist.

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