God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
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29-01-2013, 07:03 AM
God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
Hey.

So for a long time, I've made it clear that I don't really give a shmick about religious views. There's no empirical proof of any of the different religions claims, ie, God is nice, God showed up as a burning bush, God sent his son to Earth, Angels exist, Heaven and Hell exist, ya gotta do X, Y and Z to get into Heaven... As far as I'm concerned they could all be right, they could all be wrong, one could be right or a bunch could be right/wrong. I have no way of knowing.

But that for me isn't the interesting question.

I'm always interested in how things work. I love mechanics. How does gravity work? How do economic systems work? How is language, cognition and social agreement used in the creation of reality? How does Darwinism work? How do memes work?

For me, "what is the nature of the universe" is equally interesting. We seem to have proven two things.
1 - There was a big bang some 13.5 billion years ago that created the universe (although there's some really interesting stuff going on right now examining the possibility of multiple universes and the existence of big bangs; plural)
2 - There are natural laws at work in the universe that govern the interaction of matter and energy.

The second one has led people to the idea of naturalism, that every phenomenon in the universe has a natural cause. Unfortunately that cannot be proven. But we roll with it anyway. Which is fine.

If naturalism is true, then there cannot be a God. If it isn't true (and even as long as it remains ambiguous) it leaves the door open for the question, is there a creator of the universe?

That's a really interesting question to me. One that I have no answer for (and neither does anyone else).

To me, the various religious doctrines of the world don't speak to this question at all. Say, for example, Christianity's description of God is 100% inaccurate. That doesn't comment on the existence or non-existence of God in any way. Someone could describe me as an 18th century haberdasher with a 40 foot penis and fire vomit, but as incorrect a description as that is, I exist nonetheless.

Anyhoo, this is not a thread that is trying to suggest that there is a God, nor is it one that is trying to suggest that there is no God. I am firm in my belief that maybe there is, maybe there isn't, I don't know.

I conducted a poll recently and one of the curious facts to come out of it was that many people think that the Judeo-Christian God was full of shit (presumably because the Bible is full of shit) but that they simply lacked belief in a creator of the universe God.

So my question is this. How many people here, for whatever reason, consider a creator of the universe a possibility and why and how many people here believe that there is in fact no creator of the universe and why? Answers not represented in that question are welcome as well Cool

Now, just for shits and giggles and because the title suggested it, for your viewing pleasure:





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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29-01-2013, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2013 07:26 AM by Vosur.)
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
(29-01-2013 07:03 AM)Ghost Wrote:  So my question is this. How many people here, for whatever reason, consider a creator of the universe a possibility and why and how many people here believe that there is in fact no creator of the universe and why? Answers not represented in that question are welcome as well
As long as there is no empirical evidence to make a decision either way, I'll stick with agnostic atheism (or agnostic adeism, for that matter). Cool

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29-01-2013, 07:34 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
I get stuck on the notion of a Creator. Specifically, what that notion is.

Typically, we would consider some Creator to be causally responsible for the universe existing. Just sitting to the side and saying, "I saw that shit, that was awesome" doesn't make someone the Creator. So what would this causal act be? HOW would someone have made the big bang, or whatever other sequence of creation you presume? Actually clarifying this is a very minor sticking point for me.

Second, connotatively, we would consider a Creator to be intelligent. Sentient, sapient, et cetera. An active agent capable of intentional action. The problem is, WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD DEFINITION FOR INTELLIGENT. And we've never had one, except for "kinda able to make some of the same kind of non-physical discernments, decisions, and actions that the most capable humans do". That's the Turing test in a nutshell. That's every AI in a nutshell. That's us looking at great apes and dolphins and dogs and ranking them by intelligence. That's the IQ test. That's every measure of intelligence that we have. And they'd all fail miserably if we were to ever apply it to a truly alien intelligence. Which is what some timeless being that existed before the universe and had the power to create it would amount to. So before I could even process the claim, I'd have to understand what sort of intellect is being claimed here.

Whether or not it's possible at all would depend on these two points, and what really is being claimed.

Also, chanelling my inner Poe: Natural laws don't disprove God's existence, they prove them! After all, laws imply a Lawgiver and a Lawkeeper. And since anyone enforcing, say, the law of universal gravitation must have power over everything, be able to see everything in order to apply the law to it, and be everywhere, all at once, throughout all time, it must be God! [/poe]

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-01-2013, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2013 08:11 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
It is possible that a mind was involved in the formation of the universe, but I consider it unlikely. The universe appears to have no particular purpose, engineering or design behind it. It is a complex system derived from simple rules and systems like this that we have experience with tend to be natural rather than designed.

Without a clear definable purpose to the universe I am highly sceptical of the hypothesis that it has an artificial origin.

You say that naturalism kills off the God concept, but I disagree completely. The God concept gives us an answer whereas the concept of naturalism leads us to the next interesting question. We seem to know something now about how the universe began. Naturalism asks - why was it that way? The answer could still be a god but if it is we'll want to understand how that god works - how that creative process works.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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29-01-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
If there is a creator, we are left with the problem of regress of the infinite variety.

So, no. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-01-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
Unsure When I was a kid, my dad said gravity is magic, just like electricity.
I am a Christian (in case you didnt know that yet) and I believe in God because He has proven His existence to me through His creations and through His Word and Bible Prophecy. I also see it as logical that God is real. It makes more sense than when people tell me that the universe came from nothing. It just suddenly appeared. I can accept that God just IS. That's why He is God. If the universe just WAS, then the universe would be God. I'm just a simple guy, not nearly as intelligent as everyone here thinks they are so I'll just live with my faith and let you all live with you lack of faith.
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29-01-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
(29-01-2013 09:14 AM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  Unsure When I was a kid, my dad said gravity is magic, just like electricity.
I am a Christian (in case you didnt know that yet) and I believe in God because He has proven His existence to me through His creations and through His Word and Bible Prophecy. I also see it as logical that God is real. It makes more sense than when people tell me that the universe came from nothing. It just suddenly appeared. I can accept that God just IS. That's why He is God. If the universe just WAS, then the universe would be God. I'm just a simple guy, not nearly as intelligent as everyone here thinks they are so I'll just live with my faith and let you all live with you lack of faith.


Good, let's let each other be. You stop posting your religious nonsense here, we'll stop calling it nonsense. Thumbsup

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-01-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
(29-01-2013 07:03 AM)Ghost Wrote:  ...
How many people here, for whatever reason, consider a creator of the universe a possibility
...?

Answering the specific question... 42?

My view:

A possibility, yes.
A probability, no.

As in god = he (she or it) who lit the blue touch paper and retired... never to be seen, heard or felt again.

Yes

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29-01-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
Is a creator of the universe possible? I have to begrudgingly say yes because there is too much "out there" that is still unknown. But it's begrudgingly because I strongly believe there is in fact no creator of the universe; to the degree that I'm tempted to say it actually is impossible.

The universe is huge. And, as you (Ghost) mentioned in your OP, there might even be multiple universes. Any being capable of creating such a thing (or things) would have to be enormously powerful, if not infinitely so. And not only powerful, but intelligent and self-directed. It's probably not mandatory, but it's difficult to imagine that such a being wouldn't also be huge, maybe even bigger than the universe itself. The likelihood that such a being could exist and us not know it in a completely doubtless way, seems quite improbable.

Finally, perhaps the most significant reason that we speculate about a universe-creating god in the first place is in an attempt to understand precisely how the universe originated. Without any specific evidence supporting that speculation, it's really nothing more than a random guess with no more validity than speculating that the universe itself is actually alive and created itself.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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29-01-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: God - Ahh Ahhh - Creator of the Universe
There is too much unknown to say never with 100% confidence. However, I am so certain I'd bet my life on it if I had to (and I guess I am according to Pascal's wager). I am 100% certain that the creator mentioned noted in any of the earthly religions never existed. Could there be something else out there sure but most probably not. For all we now, there was a prior manifestation of the universe that was destroyed and "reborn" in the big bang. Some advanced race from the prior universe could have caused that destruction and rebirth. Would they fit the "creator" label?
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