God Exists: An Open Debate
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17-10-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
My main question (there are many but this would be my main one to start off with) would be, how do you define "eternal"?

What I mean by that is that our understanding of the physical universe dictates that time didn't exist prior to the expansion event. Therefore, any attempt to apply temporal concepts like "eternal" are rendered absurd by definition. Therefore, a consciousness could not have existed before the expansion event since there was no time (or space for that matter) for it to exist in.

And until someone is able to falsify our current physical theories of the universe, it cannot be said that your stance (e.g. bullet point 1) is rational at all.

It would be like saying that it's more rational to believe that there's a point on Earth that is further north than the North Pole.

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17-10-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists. Drinking Beverage

1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."

2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.

3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.

Do you agree with me? If not, why not? Consider

Point 3 about sums it up. Lack of evidence - no real reason to have God as a hypothesis. The problem is you could take that as a hypothesis but if you want to know if it's correct or not you *have* to test it somehow. I can't see how to test it, so rather than *assert* that it is a particular way, I can leave it as an unanswered question. *Absurdly* though, because it seems neater to me, I *make the bet* that God as described in 1 does not exist. It just seems a bit crazy to me. But realistically, in order to *rule 1 out* I'd have to test the hypothesis too.

So strictly speaking, the question is unanswered and possibly unanswerable, according to me (the big professor of what is not answerable), but in fact in my heart of hearts I do pretty much believe that no universal consciousness exists. That's my limitation as a semi-evolved simian. In my ancestors days getting chased by things that wanted to eat them and such, easily jumping to conclusions was an advantage. At least I'm aware of it Tongue

But I'd rather not call your entity God - it's a bit of a hackneyed phrase, and prone to misinterpretation, especially by the "I know the truth and so help me, I'm gonna tell you" crowd Tongue
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17-10-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe.
I too would need the word "consciousness" defined. In my mind, that implies some thought or awareness either from the universe itself or from something that created the universe. If this is what you mean, then I see no evidence for it and would ask what evidence you have to support this claim?

(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist.
That's a pretty big assumption. In particular, why "must" it have always existed?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-10-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
I believe by "consciousness" Egor might be referring to the underlying order to the universe. However, "self-organized electromagnetic fields" were recently discovered in plasma, which "will give scientists a new way to explore how order emerges from chaos in the cosmos."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...092939.htm
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17-10-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
Quote: There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist.

Who says?

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-10-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists. Drinking Beverage

1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."

2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.

3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.

Do you agree with me? If not, why not? Consider

Your first statement is nonsense, unsupported by any evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-10-2012, 03:42 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 03:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists. Drinking Beverage

1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."

2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.

3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.

Do you agree with me? If not, why not? Consider

Your first statement is nonsense, unsupported by any evidence.

You're on quite a roll this afternoon. Thumbsup

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17-10-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists. Drinking Beverage

1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."

Prove it.

If you can't show it, then you don't know it.
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17-10-2012, 03:53 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(17-10-2012 11:22 AM)Egor Wrote:  I believe it is more rational to believe in the existence of God than to deny God exists. Drinking Beverage

1. There is a consciousness underlying the physical attributes of the universe. This consciousness must have always existed (eternally) and must still exist. This fundamental monistic consciousness I call "God."

2. I make no religious statement about God whatsoever. The only positive statement I make about God is what I stated in #1 above. For the record, I am personally nonreligious.

3. Atheism is the belief that there is no God (as god is described in #1 above) based on a lack of evidence for said God.

Do you agree with me? If not, why not? Consider

What I find most interesting about your posits here are their extreme resemblance to similar positions I had arrived at on my own not a few years ago. This occurred during my fuzzy (and lengthy) transitional period between belief and non-belief.

I have since learned a great deal, both about belief and also about what was likely happening in my own mind during that time. I often reflect back on those times, usually on a drive home from work, where I would try to ponder the heavy stuff like existence and origins. This was done in a complete vaccum of research, education and social discourse. The result was something very similar to what you have offered here.

If I may make a suggestion to you: stick around. Also, listen carefully to the responses you get here. I hope you can begin to see the truth about what is going on inside your own mind.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-10-2012, 06:27 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
Egor - you might as well assert there is consciousness in Oreo cookies..

They are so tasty, they must contain gods.

You must admit this makes just as much sense as your assertion.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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