God Exists: An Open Debate
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19-10-2012, 06:25 AM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
I think it depends on what Egor terms as "god"... the word means many different things to many different people on so many different levels, both positive and negative.

I can only speak for me (and maybe you will agree with me Egor) but what I experienced cannot be described in words, not fully. I can try and I think I could spend three million lifetimes writing thirty million books and TBH I dont think I would ever give justice to what I experienced..... how do you even begin to describe feeling infinte beyond the boundaries of your bodily/sensory awareness???

Its like describing love...... you can read and hear about it but until you actually feel it you can never appreciate it.

I myself wouldnt call it "god" although I would understand why people would.... again words are inert and the only buzz words I can think of are "Complete"... "Oneness"... "bliss"... "Euphoria" and to be honest these words are just human descriptions and none of them even come close to describing what I felt in those brief/eternal moments.

Nothing I have ever read in religion comes close either.... what is written in religion describes "reality" that me and you experience every single moment.... it doesnt describe what I experienced.

Again I wish I could share my experience but I cant actually describe how to get there because it wasnt something I was looking for.... it just happened???

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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19-10-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:09 AM)Egor Wrote:  We can see the effects of God's will in the design of nature; we can't see God.

This is the essence of our difference. I see no evidence of design.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-10-2012, 12:21 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:32 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Perhaps if we do agree that what we perceive as life has patterns and laws, then most of our conclusions should match up quite nicely.

So, you believe that there are patterns and laws within the universe?
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19-10-2012, 12:26 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 01:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Sound a lot like deism to me. Consider

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Deism says there is a God, but he created and left the universe to itself and has no more involvement in it. I think God never really created anything. There is only God and the universe is his dream, his illusion. It is merely an abstract self-portrait.

(19-10-2012 01:35 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  You don't understand what i am trying to say?
I try to say, your assumption is not logical and your attempt to use reason to justify a beliefe in a god is ridiculous.

Oh, silly me. In that case, go fuck yourself.
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19-10-2012, 12:27 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
Coming back later to answer Bemore.
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19-10-2012, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2012 12:35 PM by Aseptic Skeptic.)
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(18-10-2012 11:29 PM)Egor Wrote:  God, I hope most are insulting so I can ignore them. Sadcryface

Were you praying or just using the Lord's name in vain? Or is it the Consciousness' name in vain?

I hope you were not praying, because some of them were insulting, and you might succumb to confirmation bias to use that fact to support the delusion that prayer works...

... But if you were taking the Lord's name in vain and you have not been stricken dead for it yet, you can use THAT as proof that god doesn't exist. If you must confirm one bias, I suggest the one that frees your mind from your indoctrinated delusion.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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19-10-2012, 12:30 PM
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 12:21 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 01:32 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  Perhaps if we do agree that what we perceive as life has patterns and laws, then most of our conclusions should match up quite nicely.

So, you believe that there are patterns and laws within the universe?

I'd like to take a crack at this, but be forewarned that unlike some other posters here, I am neither an academic, nor a fountain of knowledge. So I suppose you should classify this as "opinion":

My understanding is that science has managed to identify what humans use words like "order" and "structure" and "law" to describe underlying much of what humans see and experience within the universe. Unfortunately, these same words are also used to describe thing accomplished by humans. Perhaps the confusion is the result of semantic error? I see only one reason (so far) to explain why some humans have chosen to take these semantic errors and extend them to an indication of sentient design underlying the structure of the universe: wishful thinking.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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19-10-2012, 01:46 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 06:25 AM)bemore Wrote:  I think it depends on what Egor terms as "god"... the word means many different things to many different people on so many different levels, both positive and negative.

Exactly? And that’s why when someone tells me they’re an atheist, it means little more than when someone say’s they believe in “God.” An atheist who “doesn’t believe in any form of gods” is irrational, because how can they know what forms of gods may be presented to them? They are close-minded. And that is a hallmark of religion. Dodgy

Quote:I can only speak for me (and maybe you will agree with me Egor) but what I experienced cannot be described in words, not fully. I can try and I think I could spend three million lifetimes writing thirty million books and TBH I dont think I would ever give justice to what I experienced..... how do you even begin to describe feeling infinte beyond the boundaries of your bodily/sensory awareness???

I absolutely agree; you can’t, and I know I can’t. But this is not that uncommon in other spheres of experience and should not then make it relegated to some kind of emotional hysteria. I am not a mathematician I don’t know how to describe some of the topological shapes I have seen. I have no words to describe them. And truth be known, they really can’t be described in words. They can be described in math; they can be described by a drawing, but you can’t really put into words what they are.

Quote:Its like describing love...... you can read and hear about it but until you actually feel it you can never appreciate it.

Indeed. Yes

Quote:I myself wouldnt call it "god" although I would understand why people would.... again words are inert and the only buzz words I can think of are "Complete"... "Oneness"... "bliss"... "Euphoria" and to be honest these words are just human descriptions and none of them even come close to describing what I felt in those brief/eternal moments.

Agreed. And as I have said, I use the term God because it has three letters. Cool

Quote:Nothing I have ever read in religion comes close either.... what is written in religion describes "reality" that me and you experience every single moment.... it doesnt describe what I experienced.

I am far more paranoid than that. I think religions serves to try to quell that experience. After all, if people start experiencing their godhood, how are they going to be told it is good and proper that they dig a ditch for the rich guy on the hill? Religion, in my ever-so-humble opinion serves merely to give legitimacy to governments. Kind of the way accrediting bodies give legitimacy to institutions of higher learning.

I have come to hate religion like only a ex-convert can. Evil_monster

Quote:Again I wish I could share my experience but I cant actually describe how to get there because it wasnt something I was looking for.... it just happened???

I wish you could too, so I could experience it vicariously. But I suppose that’s what the arts are for: paint a picture, write a poem, tell a story, shape a sculpture, design a building, write a song, make a play, or find it in nature and photograph it. Alas, we are not yet in a position to create it.
Hobo Weeping
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19-10-2012, 01:55 PM
God Exists: An Open Debate
Egor, if you could, would you explain the ramifications of your belief? Does knowing the universe is god make your life any different from one who believes the universe has always existed?

I guess what I'm really asking is, why does your belief matter?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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19-10-2012, 01:58 PM
 
RE: God Exists: An Open Debate
(19-10-2012 12:30 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(19-10-2012 12:21 PM)Egor Wrote:  So, you believe that there are patterns and laws within the universe?

I'd like to take a crack at this, but be forewarned that unlike some other posters here, I am neither an academic, nor a fountain of knowledge. So I suppose you should classify this as "opinion":

My understanding is that science has managed to identify what humans use words like "order" and "structure" and "law" to describe underlying much of what humans see and experience within the universe. Unfortunately, these same words are also used to describe thing accomplished by humans. Perhaps the confusion is the result of semantic error? I see only one reason (so far) to explain why some humans have chosen to take these semantic errors and extend them to an indication of sentient design underlying the structure of the universe: wishful thinking.

A conscious being looks at the nature that surrounds him and sees systems in place. And it is inconceivable to that conscious being that a system would form without intent. It is the intent the being wonders about. Because in all of nature that he lives in, only animals seem capable of intent. Only conscious entities seem capable of intent.

You can say it's all just an accident formed out of nothing, because when there was nothing there were no laws of logic to prevent it from happening, so...it...just...did.

But that's not a rational belief--even if it's true, it's not a conclusion a rational mind comes to.

There is no proof that everything is a happy accident. There is no proof that a conscious entity is forming this universe in its mind. But of the two, it is not rational to believe the former.

One can say, "I just don't know." One can say, "I just don't care." These are still rational positions. One can assume a consciousness created the systems in nature, that's also rational. But to say it just happened out of nothing for no reason, and just so happens to evolve into systems for no reason, and gravity just happened to pop up, and the laws of physics just happen to be in place, etc. That is magical thinking, and that is not rational.

Ergo, it is not rational to be an atheist. You can be anti-religious and agnostic or apatheistic, but not atheist. No
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